tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post6325265382138521444..comments2023-06-13T19:06:50.965-07:00Comments on Oasis: Loving the PoorKarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-38017204446878248202009-09-08T09:58:03.158-07:002009-09-08T09:58:03.158-07:00Ah, I have to be cordial, but it's considered ...Ah, I have to be cordial, but it's considered cordial when he lies and distorts my words? Once again, I'd like to point out your double standard.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-72032251645391803812009-09-08T08:15:36.541-07:002009-09-08T08:15:36.541-07:00GCT, it is difficult for me to accept that since y...GCT, it is difficult for me to accept that since you call me dishonest too. Also, I have not observed what you claim regarding him. So I ask for you to be cordial to him. You don't have to respond to him if you don't want to.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-80529837515220879302009-09-08T07:47:29.143-07:002009-09-08T07:47:29.143-07:00He can respond all he wants, but it'll be the ...He can respond all he wants, but it'll be the same old, dishonest BS (or stupidity). That's a big reason why he's been moderated on Daylight Atheism (not because Ebon thinks he's a threat as cl dreams up in his mind). It's because I and others noticed his inability to act in good faith when debating. It may very well be due to simple stupidity, but it's more likely due to dishonesty.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-28719383008944240592009-09-08T07:19:54.330-07:002009-09-08T07:19:54.330-07:00GCT, sounds to me that you are addressing CL'...GCT, sounds to me that you are addressing CL's comment, so it will be his prerogative to respond to what you have said, rather than I.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-8995981599839602452009-09-03T15:47:53.530-07:002009-09-03T15:47:53.530-07:00Karla,
GCT assumes I either misrepresented or mis...<b>Karla,</b><br /><br />GCT <i>assumes</i> I either misrepresented or misunderstood him, but did you notice how the possibility that he may have misrepresented or misunderstood my answer never even comes up? He just assumes his own knee-jerk assumption is correct, and that his opponent is either stupid, or operates in bad faith. To me, not only is that arrogant, but completely antithetical to a spirit of rational inquiry, for how can one learn anything if their opponent is always wrong?<br /><br /><b>GCT,</b><br /><br />"cl's in the spot of either not having the requisite intelligence to follow along or simply being dishonest."<br /><br />See, that's the thing that leaves me continually scratching my head when I read your remarks. First, why do you assume I'm either dumb or dishonest? Because I didn't say something like, "Golly gee, GCT, I agree that doing it on a large scale that helps all those in need is not something that individuals are equiped to do?" I said before that you often think in black-and-white, and here you've confirmed it again: that I'm dumb or dishonest <i>isn't</i> the only two options, GCT, and your claim is a textbook either/or fallacy: you omit the possibility that I <i>did</i> understand you, and you omit the possibility that <i>maybe you misunderstood me</i>.<br /><br />I understood the aforementioned part of your argument! I understood that you believe "large-scale assistance is necessary because individuals can't solve it all!" Guess what? I know it may be anathema that someone disagrees with you, but it's not that misunderstood or misrepresented you; <i>it's that I don't share those particular beliefs of yours</i>.<br /><br />My point - which for some reason you didn't even address - is that if individuals in every family, town and city helped their own, there would be no need for the "large-scale assistance" you claim is necessary. <br /><br />Don't jump to conclusions; that you don't hear the answer you want doesn't mean your opponent has misunderstood or misrepresented your argument. Instead of demeaning them or deleting their comments, why not try giving people who disagree with you the benefit of the doubt once in a while? You might just learn something about yourself.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-35021081021511231112009-09-03T07:09:01.027-07:002009-09-03T07:09:01.027-07:00Isn't it pretty obvious? His points about wha...Isn't it pretty obvious? His points about what I said are either intentionally misinterpreting what I said or he is unable to grasp a simple point. That was a rather simple point as well...were you unable to grasp that?GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-64303826273865859592009-09-03T06:32:34.288-07:002009-09-03T06:32:34.288-07:00GCT, you responded to my response to CL, but not t...GCT, you responded to my response to CL, but not to CL's response. Do you have thoughts on his?Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-87017768179958655072009-09-03T04:54:17.922-07:002009-09-03T04:54:17.922-07:00Karla,
"CL, good points."
Except for th...Karla,<br />"CL, good points."<br /><br />Except for the part where he misrepresented my argument, but whatever. He's allowed to do that here I see.<br /><br />I think even you have to agree, however, that I was not speaking about individuals throwing up their hands and saying that they shouldn't help others but that doing it on a large scale that helps all those in need is not something that individuals are equiped to do. That that would escape both of you could be a mitigating factor in your defense I guess, but that would be admitting to not being able to follow an argument that I've made multiple times now. cl's in the spot of either not having the requisite intelligence to follow along or simply being dishonest. Where will you fall Karla?<br /><br />"And even if that welfare program was constitutional and ethical it would still be good or even better for people to help their neighbor as they are able to."<br /><br />What is unconstitutional about our welfare? Good luck, but you don't need it because you'll simply ignore this or cut and paste in some rationale from some right winger that doesn't know what he's talking about (which suits you just fine since you don't know either).GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-88063214208980108712009-09-02T18:42:15.650-07:002009-09-02T18:42:15.650-07:00CL, good points. We certainly need to be mindful o...CL, good points. We certainly need to be mindful of individually helping those in need even if we did have a very good welfare program (which we don't). And even if that welfare program was constitutional and ethical it would still be good or even better for people to help their neighbor as they are able to. I think modern society has lost much of what it means to live in community, but is struggling to find real community life again.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-52135152819021855762009-09-02T13:21:20.118-07:002009-09-02T13:21:20.118-07:00As far as the OP is concerned, GCT said,
"I...As far as the OP is concerned, <b>GCT</b> said, <br /><br />"It would be nice if we could all personally help those who need it, but we can't. That's why we institute things like government aid programs. It's because we realize that we can't undertake such things as helping all the poor in individual ways."<br /><br />I fundamentally disagree with this and believe it's the same flawed thinking that's led to bloated yet failing social service programs. IMO, it's really a defeatist and untrue claim: now, there are exceptions to every rule, and some people <i>really can't</i> help others because they themselves need help, but the truth is that the rest of us retain the ability to directly help other human beings. <br /><br />Some of us can do this in small ways - like buying an extra water for the homeless lady out front on a summer day, or even just stopping to converse with the local street people in our neighborhoods - other people can do bigger things, like sponsoring Thanksgiving luncheons for those without home or family. Etc. To make these points is not to argue that zero social service programs are wholly unnecessary, either. I'm just saying, the whole "I can't help because.." attitude is a cop-out. <br /><br />Really, with the aforementioned caveat kept in mind, only those who are unduly focused on themselves can't figure out ways to personally and directly help those in need.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-59940174507026698762009-09-02T13:02:01.674-07:002009-09-02T13:02:01.674-07:00I just wanted to clarify that all have freedom to ...I just wanted to clarify that all have freedom to continue to address the subject matter in a respectful manner. <br /><br />GCT, I really don't want to be at odds with you on a personal level. Can we move beyond this? On my side, I will try to be more attentive to opposing views and address them more fully. I don't want anyone to feel their view isn't treated with respect or ignored. That is not my intention and I apologize for where I have failed in that. <br /><br />The existence of God (including His Triune nature) is more to me than debatable philosophy. He is my whole life and His reality affects every single area of my living and being. So that is something my mind has closed around, I have been honest about that. There is still a large spectrum of philosophy that I am open minded about because of this starting place and not despite it. <br /><br />Also, GCT, it would be helpful to me, if there is anything, no matter how small, that you do agree with in regard to a post -- that you let me know so we can build on some commonalities instead of always discussing our differences. Would that be okay with you? I'm sure you can find something in each post where we agree.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-42172843447127664762009-09-01T09:07:10.015-07:002009-09-01T09:07:10.015-07:00"I do feel like I've failed you because I..."I do feel like I've failed you because I have tried very hard to be kind and respectful to you...to respect them and accept them. Where do you think we should go from here?"<br /><br />Well, first of all, you can stop with the respectful carp. We both know that I've chided you many times on this point. Let me do so again.<br /><br />It is not respectful of you to simply say nice, polite things. Attempts at placation are not respect. Dealing with my arguments would be a sign of respect. Actually reading them would help as well. Or, how about not being intellectually dishonest?<br /><br />When you abjectly refuse to consider that you might be wrong about something, and then claim that you are open minded, you are being disrespectful.<br /><br />When you use double standards, you are being disrespectful.<br /><br />When you routinely ignore points made against your position you are being disrespectful. When you further claim that you have not done this and/or that you have answered objections that you have not, you are adding to the disrespect.<br /><br />When you misuse words over and over (after being corrected), you are being disrespectful to the language as well as open and honest discussion.<br /><br />In short, I simply don't find you to be respectful at all. Saying, "Please" or "Thank you" is not the same as being respectful.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-30380030171246950512009-09-01T07:02:35.986-07:002009-09-01T07:02:35.986-07:00CL, I understand. Thanks for pointing out the agre...CL, I understand. Thanks for pointing out the agreement. It is much better to see where people agree then where they disagree. I want to try and do that more. <br /><br />Also, please don't respond to GCT's last response to me or you. I've responded, and I want to leave it at that. I don't want further arguing on this blog that is not my heart for this space. I hope peace can prevail henceforth.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-20731775991566902952009-09-01T07:00:22.242-07:002009-09-01T07:00:22.242-07:00Also, GCT, I am sorry for using the word "juv...Also, GCT, I am sorry for using the word "juvenile" I shouldn't have even said that. I don't want to demean you in any way, and that was out of line of me.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-25859854547006123932009-09-01T06:59:32.378-07:002009-09-01T06:59:32.378-07:00GCT, I'm really sorry you see things that way....GCT, I'm really sorry you see things that way. I'm not going to defend myself further. I do feel like I've failed you because I have tried very hard to be kind and respectful to you and to show you that I do respect your non-beliefs just the same as everyone else in this room and that I don't have to agree with someone to respect them and accept them. Where do you think we should go from here?Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-15950130924139874632009-09-01T05:39:20.356-07:002009-09-01T05:39:20.356-07:00Karla,
"GCT, I have several times publicly as...Karla,<br />"GCT, I have several times publicly asked CL not to speak adversely towards you and you know this is true."<br /><br />Yet, when he does it, you turn a blind eye or chide me by saying that he's trying to communicate something to me (as if I'm too thick to see what he's doing).<br /><br />"I have spoken to you towards him less times, I believe, even overlooking things you have said to him and me many many times."<br /><br />Just admit it, this is simply not true and you have a bias that is showing. It's natural. Those who can't support their arguments always need to resort to such tactics.<br /><br />"I chose to let it slide with him this time as his tone was much less than what I normally get from you."<br /><br />What a load of BS, and you know it. It's good to see it coming out though, as we both always knew what you are really about.<br /><br />"However, I will delete you last comment towards him because you were over the top with that and just trying to get a reaction out of me."<br /><br />He is a liar and a sophist and an idiot, and I stand by that. I will not apologize for it either. Nor was I trying to get a reaction out of you, I was exposing your hypocrisy.<br /><br />"Really this is rather juvenile don't you think?"<br /><br />Ah, but it's not juvenile to lie and be a hypocrite? It's not juvenile to come here and insult someone who isn't going to fight back and make pronouncements of victory towards someone who has stated that he wants nothing to do with you? It's not juvenile (hypocritical and blatantly dishonest) to hold different standards for different people depending on whether they agree with your viewpoint or not? Really Karla, I thought you claimed that you were looking for honest, open dialog or some reasonable facsimile. Instead, what you really want is to proclaim your beliefs and have them go unchallenged. Any challenge is, of course, taken as insulting to you because you can't separate your beliefs from yourself. So, naturally, I'm the evil atheist for daring to question your beliefs, which, of course, should be held as sacrosanct and above reproach. I mean, you believe them after all, so therefore they are true. Right? How pathetic, and yes, it is pathetic. Reality does not conform to your will. You should conform your beliefs to reality. You, however, are completely incapable of doing such, which is a pity, because you will continue to wallow in ignorance and superstition until you can open your eyes to this fact.<br /><br />And, you will continue to be held in thrall by idiots like cl, and charlatans like Strobel, et. al.<br /><br />Now, be a good little girl and delete this one too.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-1317398573210541122009-09-01T05:29:04.890-07:002009-09-01T05:29:04.890-07:00MS,
"GCT--I wasn't speaking favorably eit...MS,<br />"GCT--I wasn't speaking favorably either. Christianity's involvement with the right (and left) is ridiculous in my view as well. Either we agree, or I've misunderstood you."<br /><br />I've known about your stance on church/state separation, and we've always been in very good agreement there. I was not necessarily talking about that, but about the policies that one political side pursues and how much the right and the religious right band together to fight the evil liberals.<br /><br />Ah, whatever. I like your stance on the political process, although I don't see why you would abstain from voting if that is done as a result of your stance.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-51901625336821174572009-08-31T20:47:49.376-07:002009-08-31T20:47:49.376-07:00Karla,
I said, "Even weirder is that both th...<b>Karla,</b><br /><br />I said, "Even weirder is that both the Christian advocating as Karla does - and the atheist advocating as GCT does - ultimately put their faith in the same thing: other people. Karla in "other people" via individuals, GCT in "other people" via government."<br /><br />..and you replied, "I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. I think love is better demonstrated between people rather than from organizations, but that is because my faith is in God."<br /><br />I agree. What I meant was, both you and GCT <i>are in agreement</i> that other people need to help other people, yet he seems to want to chide you for your approach, while maintaining the superiority of his own.<br /><br />You said, "I don't fit in the box you keep putting me in and I think that is what cl was trying to communicate to you."<br /><br />Well yeah, that and that there's no reason to talk to people with such arrogance.<br /><br /><b>GCT,</b><br /><br />You complained, "Karla, will you chide him for throwing insult my way even though he is on your side?"<br /><br />I didn't insult you. An <i>insult</i> is more like what you said to me the last time you came to my blog: "You are a troll, a liar, and a useless sack of s--t." Now <i>that's</i> an insult. Here, I was just noting that you're being a total jerk to Karla when there's no need for it. Lose the complex. <br /><br />You said, "So, when he claims that I got silent because his question was too hard for me to answer, doesn't it look just a little bit self-serving of him?"<br /><br />If you have an answer for the argument referred to, I'm all ears. If you're really about logic and rationalism and all that like you claim, you should easily be able to cast aside your personal distaste for me to discuss an argument, right?<br /><br />Lastly, I'm not on Karla's side. How quickly you forget.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-4269925613763794362009-08-31T18:13:46.805-07:002009-08-31T18:13:46.805-07:00GCT, I have several times publicly asked CL not to...GCT, I have several times publicly asked CL not to speak adversely towards you and you know this is true. I have spoken to you towards him less times, I believe, even overlooking things you have said to him and me many many times. <br /><br />I chose to let it slide with him this time as his tone was much less than what I normally get from you. <br /><br />However, I will delete you last comment towards him because you were over the top with that and just trying to get a reaction out of me. Really this is rather juvenile don't you think?Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-41992827796290738552009-08-31T16:09:48.369-07:002009-08-31T16:09:48.369-07:00"I'm surprised that got by you, since I w..."I'm surprised that got by you, since I wasn't speaking favorably. The current alignment of the repubs with the religious right has brought us war in Iraq, abstinence only education which fails our youth, and a lot of other bad policy."<br /><br />GCT--I wasn't speaking favorably either. Christianity's involvement with the right (and left) is ridiculous in my view as well. Either we agree, or I've misunderstood you.MS Quixotenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-66114119272184798892009-08-31T11:23:57.060-07:002009-08-31T11:23:57.060-07:00"I don't know if you can follow me on thi..."I don't know if you can follow me on this, but sometimes the person(s) in need are better aided by helping them share in their gain, but giving them work rather than handing them money."<br /><br />Of course, but how do you accomplish that one a national scale? It would be nice if we could all personally help those who need it, but we can't. That's why we institute things like government aid programs. It's because we realize that we can't undertake such things as helping all the poor in individual ways. It ends up being a collective thing by necessity.<br /><br />"Also, GCT, I don't fit in the box you keep putting me in and I think that is what cl was trying to communicate to you."<br /><br />1) I'm addressing your arguments, not putting you in boxes. Learn the difference.<br />2) When cl insults me, it's him trying to communicate with me, but if I call his inane ramblings stupid, then you rebuke me. Nice double standard you've got going on there. Apparently, as long as people agree with you, they are held as being more kind, gentle, etc regardless of what they say/do. Then, you have the gall to turn around and accuse me of the very thing that you are guilty of.GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-75355856936991472902009-08-31T11:00:43.395-07:002009-08-31T11:00:43.395-07:00CL wrote, "Even weirder is that both the Chri...CL wrote, "Even weirder is that both the Christian advocating as Karla does - and the atheist advocating as GCT does - ultimately put their faith in the same thing: other people. Karla in "other people" via individuals, GCT in "other people" via government."<br /><br /><br />CL, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. . . I think love is better demonstrated between people rather than from organizations, but that is because my faith is in God.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-62070277726365882042009-08-31T10:56:12.254-07:002009-08-31T10:56:12.254-07:00GCT "If "loving our neighbors" mean...GCT "If "loving our neighbors" means to proselytize to them and/or withold aid unless the person does some sort of religious rite (as some religious organizations do!) then we have big disagreements."<br /><br />No, of course it wouldn't mean any of this you describe. It would mean giving without expecting anything in return. True love is unconditional. <br /><br />I don't know if you can follow me on this, but sometimes the person(s) in need are better aided by helping them share in their gain, but giving them work rather than handing them money. However, there are many situations where people do just need to see someone loves them without asking them to do anything at all. Each person is different, and we can't put them into a box of how their needs are best met. A parent knows each child feels loved in different ways, and knowing a person first can help with giving the aid in the way they can receive without feeling undignified. <br /><br />Also, GCT, I don't fit in the box you keep putting me in and I think that is what cl was trying to communicate to you.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-88828105991895077612009-08-31T10:49:53.336-07:002009-08-31T10:49:53.336-07:00Cally said "Jesus was able to accept people f...Cally said "Jesus was able to accept people for where they were/are at in life and yet still set them free from what binds them. Charity is good to a point, but unless you get to know someone first and then understand their needs. The giving is rather pointless."<br /><br /><br />I agree. I am all about setting people free and not putting bondage of external change upon them. That's why I think it aids people better to receive help from those who know them rather than checks in the mail from the government. At the same time, I'm not suggesting the government stop this aid and leave them with nothing. This could take years to accomplish in a national scale.Karlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15737176726360623655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1891021171911308006.post-53633177815894972322009-08-31T10:36:40.833-07:002009-08-31T10:36:40.833-07:00Do I have to point out, yet again, that cl's c...Do I have to point out, yet again, that cl's claims to victory ring hollow when I've already said that I won't engage him in his sophistry? So, when he claims that I got silent because his question was too hard for me to answer, doesn't it look just a little bit self-serving of him? This is especially true after the insults he has just heaped on me that he knows I won't respond to. Karla, will you chide him for throwing insult my way even though he is on your side?GCThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09744295225958022872noreply@blogger.com