“God’s justice demands that sin be punished, but his love compels him to save sinners. So by Christ’s death for us his justice is satisfied and his love released. Thus, there is no contradiction between absolute justice and unconditional love. To illustrate, God is like the judge who after passing out the punishment to the guilty defendant, laid aside his robe, stood alongside the convicted, and paid the fine for him. Jesus did the same for us on
-- Norman Geisler Quotation from “Who Made God?”
10 comments:
How does killing an innocent person satisfy justice? How is it just to hold us all to a standard that we can not attain? We are not all sinners saved if god is "compel[led]" to save us through his "love?"
He didn't kill an innocent person. Humanity did that, He offered Himself as our sacrifice. Because by His grace we can be saved without earning it. We are God dependent. We cannot save ourselves.
We are all sinners. Do you exempt yourself from ever having done anything wrong? He compels Himself to save us by love. We either surrender to that reality of His love or we live outside it by our choice.
Karla,
"He didn't kill an innocent person. Humanity did that, He offered Himself as our sacrifice."
How does killing an innocent person satisfy justice?
"Because by His grace we can be saved without earning it."
If we did not earn it, then it is not just.
"We are all sinners. Do you exempt yourself from ever having done anything wrong?"
If we are all sinners then god is judging us by a standard that we can not meet.
"He compels Himself to save us by love."
But, apparently not all of us.
"We either surrender to that reality of His love or we live outside it by our choice."
No one decides to go to hell for eternity. I thought we established that already. So, why the "choice"?
Also, you still have yet to answer the drowning metaphor. Is it just or loving to put us in a situation where we are drowning and then throw a life preserver? Was it just for him to punish us all for the "sins" of Adam and Eve?
Justice is getting what you deserve. Grace is giving you want you don't deserve. God is both just and full of grace and mercy. So while His justice condemns us, His loving grace and mercy provided the antidote for our sins through Jesus.
Judging God is not the way to become justified. When the Judge pronounces the punishment for the crime and then takes the place of the defendant in receiving the punishment and the defendant declares himself to not be in need of this grace because of his pride causing the punishment falls on him due to his rejection of the grace.
C.S. Lewis says there will be those who say to God "Thy will be done" and then there will be those who God says "thy will be done." The former give up their will to God's will and the later retain their will despite God's will and God gives them that freedom. He doesn't cause them to reject Him, but he allows them to do so or else it wouldn't really be love would it?
As for your drowning story. God didn't create a humanity that was drowning. He created one that was good. However to create us with the ability to love and to know love He gave us the freedom to choice love or not. If He had not we would be robots and would not know what it means to love. If He hadn't created us at all you wouldn't have life or love and I don't think anyone would prefer their non-existence.
Karla,
"Justice is getting what you deserve. Grace is giving you want you don't deserve. God is both just and full of grace and mercy. So while His justice condemns us, His loving grace and mercy provided the antidote for our sins through Jesus."
So, god is not giving us what we supposedly deserve when he bestows grace. That means that the two ideas are being set up against one another and god is contradicting himself to bestow undeserved grace on us. IOW, to gain something that we don't deserve is unjust, therefore by bestowing undeserved grace god is being unjust.
"Judging God is not the way to become justified."
And following unjust laws is? Would you think your response here is appropriate to minorities that were fighting for their rights during the Civil Rights era?
"When the Judge pronounces the punishment for the crime and then takes the place of the defendant in receiving the punishment and the defendant declares himself to not be in need of this grace because of his pride causing the punishment falls on him due to his rejection of the grace."
This makes no sense for multiple reasons. How is it just for the judge to stand in for the guilty party? How is that just? I.e. how does killing an innocent man satisfy justice?
Secondly, let's say it is just for another to pay the price for your sins. In court, let's say you were assessed a fine and someone pays it for you. If you act indignantly to the person who paid your fine, do you automatically become responsible for paying that fine?
"The former give up their will to God's will and the later retain their will despite God's will and God gives them that freedom. He doesn't cause them to reject Him, but he allows them to do so or else it wouldn't really be love would it?"
So, what you are telling me is that god demands that we be automatons for him, that we give up our will for him. Anything less means that we do not love him and that he's justified in torturing us for eternity. Yet, if god really loves us, why would he demand this from us? Do you demand that your husband perform your every wish? Would that be love if you did?
"As for your drowning story. God didn't create a humanity that was drowning."
I don't see how you can argue this. If god is omni-max, then everything that happens necessarily happens due to god's will. There is no way around this. Even so, god is the one that sets the standards, so god is necessarily the one that is putting us in a position where we are drowning. Let me ask you this, can anyone get to heaven without god throwing them a life preserver? No. And, who made up the rules? god did. Therefore, the inescapable conclusion is that god IS responsible for our state.
"He created one that was good."
If we were wholly good, then we would not have had the capacity to fall in the first place. Plus, you've already argued that Jesus was pre-destined to come to save all of mankind, so we were in need of saving even without the fall! By your own argument you are rebutted.
"However to create us with the ability to love and to know love He gave us the freedom to choice love or not. If He had not we would be robots and would not know what it means to love."
Do you think that people in heaven are robots and can not know love? If not, is there free will in heaven?
"If He hadn't created us at all you wouldn't have life or love and I don't think anyone would prefer their non-existence."
Non-existence is preferrable to an existence that is punctuated by an eternity in hell. god should be smart enough to realize this and not put someone in the pool that he knew would drown and go to hell. Regardless of whether you were responsible or not, would you allow a child to go swimming if you knew that child would drown?
”So, god is not giving us what we supposedly deserve when he bestows grace. That means that the two ideas are being set up against one another and god is contradicting himself to bestow undeserved grace on us. IOW, to gain something that we don't deserve is unjust, therefore by bestowing undeserved grace god is being unjust.”
That’s what justification is all about. His justice is satisfied when He pays our debt.
”And following unjust laws is? Would you think your response here is appropriate to minorities that were fighting for their rights during the Civil Rights era?”
I don’t follow. The world’s justice is not perfect. God’s is.
”This makes no sense for multiple reasons. How is it just for the judge to stand in for the guilty party? How is that just? I.e. how does killing an innocent man satisfy justice?”
Justice is giving the deserved punishment. Grace is taking the punishment Himself. The punishment meets justice; His substituting Himself in our place fulfills love. Thus He is both one who is just and one who loves. Justice doesn’t act alone from His attributes but along side them all.
”Secondly, let's say it is just for another to pay the price for your sins. In court, let's say you were assessed a fine and someone pays it for you. If you act indignantly to the person who paid your fine, do you automatically become responsible for paying that fine?”
The example isn’t perfect. It’s not a matter of indignation but of non-acceptance. It’s continuing to live separated from God even though He’s made a free way of reconciliation. We are always free to reject His love. We are always free to serve our own will. But when we are not in His grace by accepting His free gift, we are in His justice and that is detrimental to us.
”So, what you are telling me is that god demands that we be automatons for him, that we give up our will for him. Anything less means that we do not love him and that he's justified in torturing us for eternity. Yet, if god really loves us, why would he demand this from us? Do you demand that your husband perform your every wish? Would that be love if you did?”
Love always puts the other first. It’s a symbiotic relationship. If I loved perfectly I will always put my husband’s needs above my own and he would put my needs above his. Love is self-sacrificing always. So what we are talking about here is a God who sacrifices His self for us by His love and a people who love Him more than we love ourselves. Now He doesn’t have needs. He doesn’t need our love. We need to love Him. When we don’t love Him, it is not His loss but ours and because we lose He grieves because of His love. He loves us even though He doesn’t need to for He has no needs. When we don’t love Him we lose that experience and what that love does in us when we love as well as are objects of His love. He wants us to love Him because He loves us and our loving Him is good for us. Does that help?
”If we were wholly good, then we would not have had the capacity to fall in the first place. Plus, you've already argued that Jesus was pre-destined to come to save all of mankind, so we were in need of saving even without the fall! By your own argument you are rebutted.”
We still needed God’s self sacrificing love even if we didn’t sin. Had we not sinned, it would have been different, but we still needed God for we are made dependent on Him we are designed for relationship with Him that is for our good. However, we did sin.
”Do you think that people in heaven are robots and can not know love? If not, is there free will in heaven?”
No I think they are free people who delight in the love of God. We will have been perfected by then already having gone through the process of learning to love freely. I haven’t ever thought that through theologically. I think we would still be free, but perfectly free and there would be no desire in us to not love because we are living in the result of our free choice.
”Non-existence is preferrable to an existence that is punctuated by an eternity in hell. god should be smart enough to realize this and not put someone in the pool that he knew would drown and go to hell. Regardless of whether you were responsible or not, would you allow a child to go swimming if you knew that child would drown?”
We don’t have to drown. God granted us the freedom we act on that freedom. He does not act for us on that freedom. The thing is real freedom is in Him not apart from Him. We were designed to be free from sin. When we live bond to it we are not free. It is those who are in Christ who are free indeed.
If I knew I was going to have a child with a severe handicap I would not cease to value my child’s life and terminate the pregnancy. I would still give that child life and let my child experience love and joy. God however did not create us with a handicap but with freedom that could lead to bondage if you went one direction, but the fullness of life if you went the other. I think just about everyone would want to taste life and make that choice on their own instead of have God make it for them even if it was good. How many children who grow up being forced to do what their parents want for their own good only to rebel because they were never given the freedom to make choices on their own and learn from their mistakes? There is a degree that the parent must protect the child, but their must also be a freedom to where the child is allowed to try to walk across the room even though he could fall and hurt himself. Or the child is allowed to drive a car even though he could get into a car accident and die.
Karla,
"That’s what justification is all about. His justice is satisfied when He pays our debt."
So, do we somehow deserve grace because Jesus died?
"I don’t follow. The world’s justice is not perfect. God’s is."
Your response says that we can only be just by following god, no matter whether god's laws are just or not. By looking at god's laws and seeing that they are not just, is not how we become justified, according to you. My response was that we should not simply sit back and say that god is just simply because we have to follow his law in order to be saved.
And, you keep claiming that god's justice is perfect, but you can't defend that notion. How is it just to judge us for crimes we did not commit? Why is it just to slay an innocent man for others? How does this satisfy justice? Why is it just to hold us to impossible standards?
"Justice is giving the deserved punishment. Grace is taking the punishment Himself."
So, once again, when he does not give us what we deserve, he is not being just. Period. End of story. The situation that you have made for yourself in your religion is not internally consistent.
"The example isn’t perfect. It’s not a matter of indignation but of non-acceptance."
It doesn't matter. Even if you don't accept that the person has paid your fine/penalty, to the judge it has been paid, even if the judge is the one who paid it!
"But when we are not in His grace by accepting His free gift, we are in His justice and that is detrimental to us."
You keep saying that god is completely just and loving at the same time, but even here you can't talk about the situation without setting up the dichotomy of justice or love. If we aren't in his love, then we are in his justice...it's your words that are rebuking your own argument!
"Love always puts the other first. It’s a symbiotic relationship."
How is god putting us first then? By demanding that we give up our will and do his will, he's simply not.
"Love is self-sacrificing always."
This is a rather absurd statement. Love isn't about self-sacrifice, but about mutual betterment. Sacrificing oneself for another doesn't prove love. Besides, what sacrifice can an omni-max being actually make? It's a contradiction in thought.
"When we don’t love Him, it is not His loss but ours and because we lose He grieves because of His love."
If he has lost nothing, then why does he grieve? This is contradictory.
"Does that help?"
No, because it is all assertion and you are contradicting yourself in this paragraph.
"We still needed God’s self sacrificing love even if we didn’t sin."
Then you can not say that god did not put us in the water. That option is now closed to you. Therefore, we are drowning because god put us there.
"No I think they are free people who delight in the love of God."
If they are free, then by your logic they must be free to do evil. Therefore evil can exist in heaven and must according to your doctrines. Heaven, therefore is not perfect bliss, because evil does exist.
"We will have been perfected by then already having gone through the process of learning to love freely."
We can not freely choose to do only good, else we are not free, according to your argument.
"I think we would still be free, but perfectly free and there would be no desire in us to not love because we are living in the result of our free choice."
IOW, you would be abrogating your free will by the choice you made at your death. Would you not have the free will to look down into hell and see the suffering and decide that it is immoral? Would you not have the free will to grieve for loved ones in hell?
"We don’t have to drown. God granted us the freedom we act on that freedom."
That doesn't matter. If god put us in the water, then he has acted immorally. Providing a life preserver doesn't make god good, it's simply him doing what he should due to his moral obligation to us for putting us in that position to begin with.
"We were designed to be free from sin."
Not so according to you. Adam and Eve still needed Jesus to be saved, so they were NOT free from sin.
"If I knew I was going to have a child with a severe handicap I would not cease to value my child’s life and terminate the pregnancy."
That's nice and all, but it doesn't answer my question. We've established that god put us into the water, and now you should answer the question. Would you put a child into the water if you knew that that child would die and go to hell because of your actions?
"I think just about everyone would want to taste life and make that choice on their own instead of have God make it for them even if it was good."
Ask people in hell whether they would be better off having lived or not having lived.
"How many children who grow up being forced to do what their parents want for their own good only to rebel because they were never given the freedom to make choices on their own and learn from their mistakes?"
And how many parents cast their children into hell for those mistakes with no chance of reconciliation to burn for eternity?
"There is a degree that the parent must protect the child, but their must also be a freedom to where the child is allowed to try to walk across the room even though he could fall and hurt himself."
And, if the parent had foreknowledge that the child would die, the parent would be held liable for allowing the child to die or putting the child in a situation that the child would die. For instance, would you leave rat poison out on the floor if you had a child crawling around the house unsupervised? And, this isn't even a good analogy because in order to be a true analogy, you would have to know that the child would in fact eat the rat poison and die and still leave it out.
"Or the child is allowed to drive a car even though he could get into a car accident and die."
If you had foreknowledge that your child would die in a car accident if you gave them the keys, would you? Would you claim that they freely chose to go out, so dying is their punishment and they have to learn somehow, or would you forbid the child to go?
”So, do we somehow deserve grace because Jesus died?”
Nope. He it’s His love that gives us the grace we don’t deserve. Hmm, maybe I need to write a post on this because it doesn’t seem like I’m communicating what I am trying to clearly enough.
”Your response says that we can only be just by following god, no matter whether god's laws are just or not. By looking at god's laws and seeing that they are not just, is not how we become justified, according to you. My response was that we should not simply sit back and say that god is just simply because we have to follow his law in order to be saved.”
Again you judge God to justify yourself. You say He isn’t just to justify your unwillingness to trust Him.
”And, you keep claiming that god's justice is perfect, but you can't defend that notion. How is it just to judge us for crimes we did not commit? Why is it just to slay an innocent man for others? How does this satisfy justice? Why is it just to hold us to impossible standards?”
Why is it good to think that we could disown the author of our life? Why do we think we can be autonomous and self-willed and do our own thing and not have consequences for that? Why do we think that we who have fallen finite thinking capacity would understand real justice better than God? Why do we think that His justice isn’t good by your own finite standards which cannot be perfect?
”So, once again, when he does not give us what we deserve, he is not being just. Period. End of story. The situation that you have made for yourself in your religion is not internally consistent.”
You can’t have it both ways. You want what you deserve? You want God to make you work for righteousness? You don’t want a free gift of grace? You don’t want Him to be merciful? You want justice in absence of mercy, grace, holiness, love?
”It doesn't matter. Even if you don't accept that the person has paid your fine/penalty, to the judge it has been paid, even if the judge is the one who paid it!”
So you want universal grace not justice.
”How is god putting us first then? By demanding that we give up our will and do his will, he's simply not.”
For our good. His will is for our good. It is not for Him but for us that we must be in His will.
”This is a rather absurd statement. Love isn't about self-sacrifice, but about mutual betterment. Sacrificing oneself for another doesn't prove love. Besides, what sacrifice can an omni-max being actually make? It's a contradiction in thought.”
He sacrificed Himself in Christ for us.
”If he has lost nothing, then why does he grieve? This is contradictory.”
Because we loss something. He loves us. That’s what love does. If my husband is hurting I am sad because of his pain, not because I have the same pain. However, God does know all our pain because Jesus experienced it.
”Then you can not say that god did not put us in the water. That option is now closed to you. Therefore, we are drowning because god put us there.”
No you are misunderstanding me.
”IOW, you would be abrogating your free will by the choice you made at your death. Would you not have the free will to look down into hell and see the suffering and decide that it is immoral? Would you not have the free will to grieve for loved ones in hell?”
We are freed by His love. He says he will wipe away every tear in heaven. He never said there wouldn’t be any tears. We will be in love in heaven. We will be perfected. His love is freedom. We will have become new creations at that point. We are free in Him. It’s a whole new thing.
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I think you want to be angry at God. I am truly sorry for your disposition towards Him. You blame Him for a lot of things. You set yourself up as greater than Him. You don’t understand what real love is about and yet you accuse Him of being unloving. Do you have children or a spouse (if I may ask)? Do you understand the love of a father?
Karla,
"Nope. He it’s His love that gives us the grace we don’t deserve."
Once again, if we are getting what we don't deserve then that is NOT justice. You can't have it both ways. You are contradicting yourself and no matter how many times you say X and not X are true, it can't make it true.
"Again you judge God to justify yourself."
Sigh. If you are going to intentionally misunderstand my arguments that I've specifically repudiated, then I will be forced to point out your intellectual dishonesty.
And, since you neglected to answer the following questions, here they are again:
And, you keep claiming that god's justice is perfect, but you can't defend that notion. How is it just to judge us for crimes we did not commit? Why is it just to slay an innocent man for others? How does this satisfy justice? Why is it just to hold us to impossible standards?
Your counter-questions are non-answers that basically try to paint us in a bad light so that somehow two wrongs would make a right. Even if we are a bunch of horrible sinners worthy on only rebuke, that wouldn't make god's actions right. Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.
"You can’t have it both ways."
And that's what I'm telling you. You can't simultaneously claim that god is perfectly just and that he gives us what we don't deserve. It doesn't matter whether I'm asking to have to earn my salvation or anything else. This is NOT an argument for your position, it is only a bad rhetorical tactic where you are trying to deflect the criticism of your position by harping on irrelevancies that you consider to be damning and distracting.
"So you want universal grace not justice."
No, I want you to defend your arguments with logic and reason. You have chosen rhetorical tricks instead. It's a shame.
"For our good. His will is for our good. It is not for Him but for us that we must be in His will."
He still demands that we do his will or else we suffer in hell for all eternity. Yes, it's for our good, only because if we don't do what he says he will punish us. Abusive spouses say the same thing.
"He sacrificed Himself in Christ for us."
Again, this does not answer the objections or the questions I posed. Here they are again:
This is a rather absurd statement. Love isn't about self-sacrifice, but about mutual betterment. Sacrificing oneself for another doesn't prove love. Besides, what sacrifice can an omni-max being actually make? It's a contradiction in thought.
To expand, a perfect being can not be harmed, and therefore can not give anything up or sacrifice and still be perfect.
"Because we loss something. He loves us. That’s what love does. If my husband is hurting I am sad because of his pain, not because I have the same pain. However, God does know all our pain because Jesus experienced it."
Then god is not perfect. Why would he grieve over something that he willed to happen?
"No you are misunderstanding me."
It's the logical end of your argument. If we needed Jesus from the start, then we were all in need of saving. Being in need of saving means that we are all in need of the life preserver. Since god set up the rules, god is the one that put us in this position, and you can't blame it on the fall anymore. Hence, your argument is defeated.
"We are freed by His love."
This does not answer the questions. Will you have free will in heaven? Will you be able to rebel against god after seeing the horrible punishment of eternal torture in action? Etc.
"I think you want to be angry at God."
Thanks for the pop psychology diagnosis, but it's logically impossible to be angry at something you don't believe in. Try again.
"You blame Him for a lot of things."
I don't blame god for anything. How can I blame a being that I don't believe in for anything? What I'm saying is that your religion is inherently contradictory and that if you believe in it then you have to face up to the logical conclusions that come from it, which include the fact that god would be responsible for everything by virtue of being omni-max. C'mon, you've tried these tactics before and I've had to correct you on this already. Are you this desperate to shore up your arguments that you'll resort to tactics such as these?
"You set yourself up as greater than Him."
If the Bible is correct, then we are all greater than god. Last I checked not one human has ever tortured someone for eternity.
"You don’t understand what real love is about and yet you accuse Him of being unloving."
Are you trying to be insulting? This is just unsubstantiated garbage that you should be ashamed at saying.
"Do you have children or a spouse (if I may ask)? Do you understand the love of a father?"
This is more garbage that has no place in this conversation.
"It's the logical end of your argument. If we needed Jesus from the start, then we were all in need of saving. Being in need of saving means that we are all in need of the life preserver. Since god set up the rules, god is the one that put us in this position, and you can't blame it on the fall anymore. Hence, your argument is defeated."
What is wrong about God creating us dependent upon Him but with the choice not to serve Him? How could we not be dependent upon our Creator? We are the created. How could we not need our Creator for life for He is the one who gives us all life. How could we be so selfish to think that we don't need Him anymore and that that would be good for us? God gave us the ability to choose and to have the ability to choose means we can choose the WRONG thing. We made that choice to choose the wrong thing and we do it still today just as Adam did it. BUT He is our life preserver and He offers us a FREE way back without us having to earn it or deserve it. He fulfilled the requirements of His Justice in our place.
"This does not answer the questions. Will you have free will in heaven?"
Our will will have been freely given up to Him because we want to give it to Him. We will be new creations in a new paradigm where all evil has been defeated. We will be one with His will at that point and loving every minute of it. We are perfectly aligned with Him and we say "Thy will be done" with all surrender.
And those who do not want this will have made their choice and been given over to their will which is eternal separation from God who they did not want and God did not force them to serve Him against their will. That in and of itself is eternal punishment. God says "thy will be done." And He surrenders us to our will.
In both instances we experience the actualization of where our choice led us. We either surrendered to Him who is life or we are given over to our will which leads to death. We will have been given plenty of warnings and plenty of chances along the way, but when the end of days comes we will live in the eternal reality of what we chose.
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And as for love. Mutual betterment only comes from being selfless. Love isn't selfish. With both are doing this mutually there is a mutual betterment, but love isn't an agreement by which we always give equal amounts and holds some back if the other doesn't preform. Love is giving all for the other. Unconditional love gives without expecting in return. The thing is the recipient of unrequited love doesn't experience the fullness of love and that is why God want us to love Him as well. It is for our good that we love because He first loved us. We lose when we don't love Him. He doesn't lose by our lack of love. We lose and His love wants us to have the fullness of His love.
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