Christianity is often curtailed as a system of private belief relegated to pertaining only to matters of spirituality and morality. In reality, Christianity is a system of life. It is a way of living that involves every aspect of one’s life from basic beliefs and worldview to culture and family. It also pertains to how one interacts in life, in the marketplace, and in the community both inside and outside of church.
Being a Christian is not just about what you believe and where you are on Sunday morning. It’s about so much more. It is an assignment, a worldview, a mission, and a way of life that stems out of a relationship with Jesus. Jesus on the inside of you causes an infusion of all that is Jesus to come out of you in all that you do. It is an identity that affects all areas of life from the smallest of choices to the largest. It is an identity of who you are when you are sitting still.
Jesus said that a good tree bears good fruit. Thus a Christian, being in a tangible relationship with Jesus, bears that reality that is inside him. That reality does not just manifest on Sunday mornings or in religious conversations, it is who you are all the time.
Many people try to be Christian. They wear Christianity on their shoulder by carrying a Bible, wearing a Christian tee-shirt, sporting a WWJD bracelet, or tuning their work radio to Praise and Worship Music to broadcast their identity. They think this is what Jesus meant when he said not to hide your light under a bushel.
However, living and breathing the way of the Christian life is living and breathing Jesus in all that you do. This looks more like going the extra mile, doing good to those who do wrong to you, talking well of those who talk bad about you, not participating in office gossip while at the same time not broadcasting your disdain. In fact, it means not having contempt for others, but instead a very powerful real love. This looks like being a cheerful giver of your time, things, and money. This looks like loving your wife, or a wife loving her husband. This looks like speaking well of your children. This looks like enjoying life with an open heart. It looks like love.
Christianity being a way of life means it is first a way of the heart. It means that one’s heart is fully immersed in Him and He flows out of you without trying. Religion is an imitation of what this looks like. Religion is trying to look like a good Christian by exerting natural effort to do the right thing even when your heart bears contempt. The way of Jesus is doing the right thing because the right thing is naturally what flows out of you.
This is not to say that there is no struggle. Paul had the struggle, so do we. We do the things we know we ought not to do, but each moment is a new moment to remember we are of Christ and we are dead to sin and alive in Him.
We have to understand though it is not a matter of doing, but being. If we try to do or even try to be, we will be copying, imitating, promoting rules and religion because we want others to try as hard as we. Relax. Rest in Him. The only striving we are called upon to do is to strive to enter His rest. When we rest in Him, our effort is light and His is strong. He does all the heavy lifting.
If only a few thousand Christians in a nation realize who they are in Christ thereby having Jesus be their way of life, we could transform every nation on this planet in a matter of years to reflect the glory of the Kingdom of God
19 comments:
karla said: If only a few thousand Christians in a nation realize who they are in Christ thereby having Jesus be their way of life, we could transform every nation on this planet in a matter of years to reflect the glory of the Kingdom of God.
That's rather optimistic isn't it? After all you're talking about transforming hundreds of different cultures into a single culture - a christian one - in a matter of years.
How exactly will this come about?
What about cultures, groups or individuals who reject that idea?
When you say 'years' how many are we talking about? 5, 10, 50, 100?
You've had 2,000 years to accomplish this already. What's taking so long?
Cyber “That's rather optimistic isn't it? After all you're talking about transforming hundreds of different cultures into a single culture - a christian one - in a matter of years.”
Well that’s the thing; it wouldn’t be a single culture. It will be diverse cultures with each culture being fully free to express the beauty of its own creative existence. It isn’t a matter of making every culture look “Christian” as is usually what Christians think needs to happen, but instead a matter of each culture being free to be itself to the fullest of its ability unrestrained from any force of evil or inhibition that prevents it from being the awesome culture it is.
Cyber “How exactly will this come about?”
By the nations of the world experiencing the goodness, glory, truth, love, and atmosphere of God in such a way that people are freed from any entanglements with spiritual darkness that hinders there ability to be themselves. Such as being free from fear, worry, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, jealousy, rage, lust, condemnation, guilt, etc. Instead they will be free to be joyous, hopeful, loving, kind, forgiving, etc. This will then enhance each culture to be the best it can be without the things that hold it back.
Cyber “What about cultures, groups or individuals who reject that idea?”
If that happens they will not experience the freedom for their culture that I am talking about. They won’t become like the cultures that have been made healthy. Individuals from that culture/community/nation will most likely if they so choice, but the culture as a whole will not find the benefits of being free if they choose not to be.
Cyber “When you say 'years' how many are we talking about? 5, 10, 50, 100?”
I don’t know.
Cyber “You've had 2,000 years to accomplish this already. What's taking so long?”
Good question. The actions of the Church trying to do this have been misguided and we have tried to Christianize cultures instead of freeing them to be themselves. Stories abound of Christians in colonial America making Native children attend their schools and cut their hair and leave behind their traditions and cultures. We stripped their identity and tried to make them look and live like “the white man.” This was done in Africa as well when Christian missionaries went into villages and tried to strip the people of their culture and replace it with either a European culture or an American culture in the name of evangelism. Some Christians still try doing things this way. It is so very damaging. Also to think that God only endorses one way of dress, education, and life is to not understand the creative nature of God. We thought we could fix the inside of a person by changing the outside. The result was religion and the transformation was superficial at best.
So much was not accomplished and much damage done. I for one, and I know many others who also, love the diversity of culture and value people being themselves. Even in our church we want people to be themselves, we ask for no conformity to any kind of mold. Knowing Jesus doesn’t mean becoming a church conformed robot, it means being free to be the good self you were created to be that is uniquely you. As soon as someone tries to change you into a mold they have put religion on you that was never meant to be.
I don’t know if you can see the difference yet, but I’m not for “religion”.
karla said: It will be diverse cultures with each culture being fully free to express the beauty of its own creative existence.
Presumably you don't think that they already have that? What's stopping them? How can you tell the difference between a culture that is fully free and one that isn't?
karla said: each culture being free to be itself to the fullest of its ability unrestrained from any force of evil or inhibition that prevents it from being the awesome culture it is.
"Force of Evil"...????
karla said: By the nations of the world experiencing the goodness, glory, truth, love, and atmosphere of God...
So - all of the nations of the Earth will need to be theistic? That'll be quite a change for mostly Secular European culture(s)..... Or is Secularism one of the 'forces of evil' you mentioned earlier?
karla said: Such as being free from fear, worry, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, jealousy, rage, lust, condemnation, guilt, etc.
So... not Capitalist then..... another huge change across the world....
karla said: I don’t know.
So... It could take another 2,000 years? Or longer?
karla said: Even in our church we want people to be themselves, we ask for no conformity to any kind of mold.
You mean apart from believing in God..... and, presumably, other things like not being a practicing homosexual?
karla said: it means being free to be the good self you were created to be that is uniquely you.
So, could I still be a unique atheist or uniquely gay? Or would that be my 'evil' self talking?
karla said: As soon as someone tries to change you into a mold they have put religion on you that was never meant to be.
So what exactly does a free individual look like? Can I be free *and* an atheist - as long as I came to that decision freely?
Cyber “Presumably you don't think that they already have that? What's stopping them? How can you tell the difference between a culture that is fully free and one that isn't?”
If that culture is riffled with crime, corruption, bribery, racism, murder, starvation, economic problems, poverty, etc. there is a need for it to be free from these entanglements. Presently I would say all cultures deal with these problems.
These are things that cannot be fully overcome only by natural correction. Some of it can be if the natural solution lines up with what is transcendently good and true. But for a full transformation individuals and communities need to experience Jesus.
Cyber "Force of Evil"...????
Yep. That is what I said. Are you asking for me to expound on that?
Cyber “So - all of the nations of the Earth will need to be theistic?”
To experience the greatest healthy environment for each nation, they will not just believe in God, but know Him. The intellectual assent to His existence means little to what I am talking about.
Cyber “That'll be quite a change for mostly Secular European culture(s).....”
Yes it would be.
Cyber “Or is Secularism one of the 'forces of evil' you mentioned earlier?”
It’s an emptiness of what I am talking about. It lacks the substance of what God’s Kingdom provides.
karla said: Such as being free from fear, worry, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, jealousy, rage, lust, condemnation, guilt, etc.
Cyber “So... not Capitalist then..... another huge change across the world.... “
I don’t think it would have such a label. It would be different than the boxes and labels we have presently.
Cyber “So... It could take another 2,000 years? Or longer?”
I doubt it.
Cyber “You mean apart from believing in God..... and, presumably, other things like not being a practicing homosexual?”
We don’t require belief or force anyone to do or not do anything. It’s up to each person to choose to follow God or not. I have people ask me all the time if they should do A, B, or C and I ask them what they feel God is telling them. I don’t tell people what they should do, even if I think I know the answer. I might say I think this way is better and here’s why, but ultimately what they “should do” is their business and is between them and God and is not for me to tell them.
karla said: it means being free to be the good self you were created to be that is uniquely you.
Cyber “So, could I still be a unique atheist or uniquely gay? Or would that be my 'evil' self talking?”
In one respect you are free to be either or both of those, but those things can hinder you being fully you. So it’s up to you, in the culture I am talking about people would love others regardless of those things. It would be better than a tolerant society, it would be a society of love and compassion.
karla said: As soon as someone tries to change you into a mold they have put religion on you that was never meant to be.
Cyber “So what exactly does a free individual look like?”
In short: A free individual looks like a person that loves without restraint, is joyous, patient, kind, hopeful, thinks good things of others, is self-less, and whole. It is a person who is fully himself. A person who doesn’t need to strive to be like someone else. No emotional or physical pain restrains him. No guilt or thoughts of inadequacy exists in his thinking. (I’m going to write more on this later as it is a very good question and one that has been on my mind)
Cyber “Can I be free *and* an atheist - as long as I came to that decision freely?”
That is a natural kind of freedom where you are free to be an atheist. But atheism doesn’t free you.
karla said: Presently I would say all cultures deal with these problems.
Indeed they do - though some more that others. However, I don't think that the answer to these problems is more theism.
karla said: These are things that cannot be fully overcome only by natural correction.
Oh? Why not?
karla said: But for a full transformation individuals and communities need to experience Jesus.
Ah... So they *do* all need to become Christians then! So much for 'being their own culture'.
karla said: Yep. That is what I said. Are you asking for me to expound on that?
Yep. What 'force of evil' are you referring to?
karla said: It’s an emptiness of what I am talking about. It lacks the substance of what God’s Kingdom provides.
I happen to think that Secular culture is far superior to theistic culture - as Secular culture can include forms of theism (in the private sphere) whilst enhancing it with secular values (in the public sphere).
karla said: I don’t think it would have such a label. It would be different than the boxes and labels we have presently.
But I thought that you approved of Capitalism? Obviously the future system wouldn't be Socialism or (God forbid) Communism..... Would it just be Theism....... Hasn't that been tried before or will the next time be different in some way?
karla said: I doubt it.
So... *less* than 2,000 years - but you're unsure as to exactly how long..... In our lifetimes? Our childrens lifetimes? Just so I can get a handle on when this complete about face in human history is supposed to happen.....
karla said: In one respect you are free to be either or both of those, but those things can hinder you being fully you.
...and being 'fully me' is being a theist? How very open-minded of you.....
karla said: That is a natural kind of freedom where you are free to be an atheist. But atheism doesn’t free you.
It certainly frees me from theism and theistic thinking. From my point of view I am most certainly more free that you. Not that you'd agree with me there!
Cyber “Indeed they do - though some more that others. However, I don't think that the answer to these problems is more theism.”
Me neither. Theism is simply an intellectual philosophy. I’m talking about real contact with the real God, not “theism.”
karla said: These are things that cannot be fully overcome only by natural correction.
Cyber said: Oh? Why not?
Because we and this world is not only natural/physical, but also supernatural/spiritual. Thus the answers are both natural and supernatural.
karla said: But for a full transformation individuals and communities need to experience Jesus.
Cyber “Ah... So they *do* all need to become Christians then! So much for 'being their own culture'.”
Yes and no. For a person or a community to be the most healthy and uninhibited it can be – all being in relationship with Jesus would be necessary. But like I said some benefits can be from just naturally lining up with some aspects of what is true even without “being a Christian”. The other thing is that “being a Christian” shouldn’t make a culture “churchy” Christians were never supposed to make such a culture that we became “churchy”. We are to be simply who we are in the creative culture that is ours so a Christian in China will look very different than one in America. Both will experience the love and joy of God, but they won’t look like the same people. There is no cookie cutter to make all societies look the same. Actually their diversity should increase while at the same time being more unified in peace than ever before.
Cyber “Yep. What 'force of evil' are you referring to?”
Spiritual evil, the darkness and ill used power of Satan and his minions.
Cyber “I happen to think that Secular culture is far superior to theistic culture - as Secular culture can include forms of theism (in the private sphere) whilst enhancing it with secular values (in the public sphere).”
I think the way you see theistic culture, your statement would be true. I bet that secular culture has some values and components that “theist culture” because a theist culture in the sense you seem to use it seems “theist” in name and possibility religious rituals only. For what I am talking about could never accurately bare that label. Just curious, can you name for me these secular values?
karla said: I don’t think it would have such a label. It would be different than the boxes and labels we have presently.
Cyber “But I thought that you approved of Capitalism? Obviously the future system wouldn't be Socialism or (God forbid) Communism..... Would it just be Theism....... Hasn't that been tried before or will the next time be different in some way? “
I don’t think any earthly system is perfect. Capitalism has its problems too, but it has more freedom going for it than socialism or communism. I think we both value freedom don’t we?
Cyber “So... *less* than 2,000 years - but you're unsure as to exactly how long..... In our lifetimes? Our childrens lifetimes? Just so I can get a handle on when this complete about face in human history is supposed to happen.....”
I think if people really caught this vision it could happen in a couple generations in some nations.
Cyber “...and being 'fully me' is being a theist? How very open-minded of you.....”
You being fully you – is being who you would be without anything adversely affecting you whether it be fear, emotional wounds, physical problems, bitterness, hopelessness. It would be you soaring free as you. Most of us don’t know who that is until we find that freedom from things we didn’t know had us bound.
Cyber “It certainly frees me from theism and theistic thinking. From my point of view I am most certainly more free that you. Not that you'd agree with me there! “
We are both free to believe what we wish. However, just as you think “theism” inhibits me and keeps me from seeing what is really true about life – so I see atheism as a blinder to what is real. However, the difference is you see both as only have a natural affect and I see them as having a spiritual affect. Moreover, theism can be just as blinding as atheism in my book if the “theist” isn’t a theist because he/she has met God personally. If it is merely an intellectual belief, it makes no difference to the person if they are a theist or an atheists the way I see it.
karla said: Theism is simply an intellectual philosophy. I’m talking about real contact with the real God, not “theism.”
I use the word 'theism' as being the opposite of atheism - a belief in God.
karla said: Because we and this world is not only natural/physical, but also supernatural/spiritual. Thus the answers are both natural and supernatural.
I disagree. As far as I am concerned there is only the natural world - therefore we only need natural answers to natural questions.
karla said: For a person or a community to be the most healthy and uninhibited it can be – all being in relationship with Jesus would be necessary. But like I said some benefits can be from just naturally lining up with some aspects of what is true even without “being a Christian”.
But being a Muslim, a Hindu or a Bhuddist wouldn't be sufficient? It's not only that you need to believe in God, or even have a personal relationship with Him... it's that you need to have a personal relationship with the God *you* believe in. Odd that......
karla said: Spiritual evil, the darkness and ill used power of Satan and his minions.
OK, I'm *really* trying not to laugh here... but, Satan?
karla said: Just curious, can you name for me these secular values?
An important one is the belief that each individual should be able to choose who they are going to be without having the beliefs of ancient books imposed on them. It is the belief that religion should have no special place in the public sphere but that people should be able to believe whatever they want and practice their beliefs however they want (within the law) in private. That's a very big improvement on previous and still existant monotheistic cultures.
karla said: Capitalism has its problems too, but it has more freedom going for it than socialism or communism.
Oh, I think that the ideology and philosophy of Capitalism has *many* problems! I also doubt that it has more freedoms that Socialism or even Communism - all 3 systems have different definitions of freedom and different ways of expressing them. If you are poor in a purely Capitalistic system you are far from being free. The best systems are probably those who mix the power and dynamism of Capitalist endeavour with the restraining hand of Socialism.
karla said: I think we both value freedom don’t we?
Yes, but I'm betting that although we use the same word that we mean (sometimes radically) different things by it....
I'll respond soon, but can you expound on more secular values. You mentioned following the law, but what values are the basis for law?
karla said: I think if people really caught this vision it could happen in a couple generations in some nations.
So, in the next 50 years (or so) and in the US (presumably) and.....
karla said: You being fully you – is being who you would be without anything adversely affecting you whether it be fear, emotional wounds, physical problems, bitterness, hopelessness.
Sounds like the ideas proposed by the Stoics - you should look them up. I think they influenced early Christian ideas in the Roman Empire.
karla said: You mentioned following the law, but what values are the basis for law?
Well, our law is a mixture of lots of influences including Roman Law and Anglo-Saxon Law. In general Law is based on the accumulation of cultural ideas through the centuries and decisions made in courts on a daily basis. BTW - if you're looking for me to mention the concept of Justice I'd just like to say that people had ideas about it long before even the Old Testament was written.... [grin]
Cyber “I use the word 'theism' as being the opposite of atheism - a belief in God.”
I know – but I assume you mean an intellectual belief as you are not affirming theists experience God. To me to believe God exist is not much different than to believe he doesn’t if neither have relationship with said God.
Cyber “I disagree. As far as I am concerned there is only the natural world - therefore we only need natural answers to natural questions.”
I know, that’s a big difference in how we see the world.
karla said: For a person or a community to be the most healthy and uninhibited it can be – all being in relationship with Jesus would be necessary. But like I said some benefits can be from just naturally lining up with some aspects of what is true even without “being a Christian”.
Cyber “But being a Muslim, a Hindu or a Bhuddist wouldn't be sufficient? It's not only that you need to believe in God, or even have a personal relationship with Him... it's that you need to have a personal relationship with the God *you* believe in. Odd that......”
There are components of each and every system of thought that have substance and truth and components that are false and empty of substance. Even within Christianity there is this. Only that which lines up with what is really true will be of the greatest quality and help in sustaining a culture to be all it can be. So even amongst Christians there needs to be a moving closer to what is true and relinquishing what is not for anything that is not good, pure, and true is damaging to us and our world.
Cyber “OK, I'm *really* trying not to laugh here... but, Satan?”
Pretty sure you knew my worldview includes the reality of Satan and demons. He was once a great angel that took a corrupted path.
Cyber “An important one is the belief that each individual should be able to choose who they are going to be without having the beliefs of ancient books imposed on them. It is the belief that religion should have no special place in the public sphere but that people should be able to believe whatever they want and practice their beliefs however they want (within the law) in private. That's a very big improvement on previous and still existant monotheistic cultures.”
So, freedom to believe or think as you like is a value you see as secular?
Cyber “Yes, but I'm betting that although we use the same word that we mean (sometimes radically) different things by it.... “
Well I think it means having free dominion in whatever context it is used. Americans are supposed to have free dominion over our own lives within the law and those laws are not to be overly restrictive of our freedom, but are to only protect that freedom from others either internally or external to our nation.
Personal freedom can be free dominion in one’s thoughts, behavior, practices, etc.
I, however, think this can be experienced at a higher level of oneself being free of anything internal that is unhealthy to one being him or herself. Such as being free to love, being free to do good, being free to forgive, being free to control oneself without someone else doing it for you by rules or enforcement of those rules. This freedom can also be about being free from emotional wounds, mental stress, guilt, fear, hatred, bitterness, or any other negative thing that would be a hindrance to the well being of your nature.
This is the kind of freedom that Jesus brings.
Cyber “So, in the next 50 years (or so) and in the US (presumably) and.....”
I don’t know that it will happen in that time frame, but I think it possible.
Cyber “Sounds like the ideas proposed by the Stoics - you should look them up. I think they influenced early Christian ideas in the Roman Empire.”
Hmm, I’ll look that up.
Cyber “Well, our law is a mixture of lots of influences including Roman Law and Anglo-Saxon Law. In general Law is based on the accumulation of cultural ideas through the centuries and decisions made in courts on a daily basis. BTW - if you're looking for me to mention the concept of Justice I'd just like to say that people had ideas about it long before even the Old Testament was written.... [grin]”
Really I’m very curious as to what constitutes secular values – can you list some? Either what values secular laws are based on that are secular values in your estimation or a list of some laws you think are secular in nature to give me an idea of what constitutes secular in this context.
karla said: I know – but I assume you mean an intellectual belief as you are not affirming theists experience God.
Well, as I don't believe they actually experience God - not believing that He exists in order to be experienced - I kind of lump them all in together.....
karla said: I know, that’s a big difference in how we see the world.
It's probably the *core* difference and explains the divide between us on just about every subject..
karla said: There are components of each and every system of thought that have substance and truth and components that are false and empty of substance. Even within Christianity there is this.
But, presumably, Christianity is closer to the truth that any other belief system - which, presumably, explains why you're a Christian?
karla said: Pretty sure you knew my worldview includes the reality of Satan and demons. He was once a great angel that took a corrupted path.
Thinking about your response has confirmed my understanding that you have a Medieval mind-set, wheras I have a Modern mind-set. It explains many of the misunderstandings between us. People in the 14th and 15th centuries must have thought very much like you. I'd really hate for the whole world to be like that. Fortunately such a world will be unlikely in my lifetime..... I'd certainly hate the Enlightenment go to waste [grin]
karla said: So, freedom to believe or think as you like is a value you see as secular?
One of them, yes.
karla said: Americans are supposed to have free dominion over our own lives within the law and those laws are not to be overly restrictive of our freedom, but are to only protect that freedom from others either internally or external to our nation.
That applies in Europe too.....
karla said: Such as being free to love, being free to do good, being free to forgive, being free to control oneself without someone else doing it for you by rules or enforcement of those rules. This freedom can also be about being free from emotional wounds, mental stress, guilt, fear, hatred, bitterness, or any other negative thing that would be a hindrance to the well being of your nature.
Sounds like Stoicism again..... and Buddhism actually....
karla said: Really I’m very curious as to what constitutes secular values – can you list some?
A think a good place to start would be the "Universal Declaraction of Human Rights".
Cyber “Well, as I don't believe they actually experience God - not believing that He exists in order to be experienced - I kind of lump them all in together.....”
I know. This is why I say I don’t see your use of the term “theism” as much different than “atheism” because neither express an experienced truth.
Cyber “It's probably the *core* difference and explains the divide between us on just about every subject.”
I agree with that.
Cyber “But, presumably, Christianity is closer to the truth that any other belief system - which, presumably, explains why you're a Christian?”
Well that depends. One could be a very “good Christian” and not be closer to the truth than a Buddhist. In fact, I think sometimes people from more mystical spirituality with doctrines seemingly very far from Christianity often get closer to the truth than some Christians who know all the “right” things and do all the “right” things. But no matter how close or far away, it all comes down to Jesus—not doctrines or informational knowledge about Him, but actually Him.
karla said: Pretty sure you knew my worldview includes the reality of Satan and demons. He was once a great angel that took a corrupted path.
Cyber “Thinking about your response has confirmed my understanding that you have a Medieval mind-set, wheras I have a Modern mind-set. It explains many of the misunderstandings between us. People in the 14th and 15th centuries must have thought very much like you. I'd really hate for the whole world to be like that. Fortunately such a world will be unlikely in my lifetime..... I'd certainly hate the Enlightenment go to waste [grin]”
I think the Enlightenment brought something good, but also had some negative side affects where we lost sight of the mystery, sacrificing spirituality in and outside of Christian culture. The East still has this mystery and they do well in science and technology even while being a very mystical culture rather than a secular one. I don’t just pick one mind set, sometimes I can say something quiet postmodern, sometimes modern, sometimes pre-modern. I think each age has an important element of truth to contribute and we don’t need to forsake the former for the latter, nor the latter for the former.
karla said: So, freedom to believe or think as you like is a value you see as secular?
Cyber “One of them, yes.”
So we share this one. As I too value people freely believing as they choose. I don’t think anyone should be forced or coerced to believe. I think belief should follow truth encounters and where there hasn’t been one a forced belief is not a good substitute no matter the reason.
Cyber “Sounds like Stoicism again..... and Buddhism actually....”
Truth is always popping up in all kinds of ways, stories, teachings, philosophies. I would expect it to be thus.
Cyber “A think a good place to start would be the "Universal Declaraction of Human Rights". “
I really was thinking you could list some succinctly that you see as cornerstone values of secularism. But I will check out this Declaration.
karla said: I think the Enlightenment brought something good, but also had some negative side affects where we lost sight of the mystery, sacrificing spirituality in and outside of Christian culture.
Actually I think that's a *good* thing. I also think that the Enlightenment still hasn't gone far enough - even in Europe.
karla said: I don’t just pick one mind set, sometimes I can say something quiet postmodern, sometimes modern, sometimes pre-modern.
It appears that you sometimes change your mode of thinking to support your pre-existing Christian beliefs or to avoiding confronting things which might possibly undermine those beliefs.
karla said: I think each age has an important element of truth to contribute and we don’t need to forsake the former for the latter, nor the latter for the former.
No. Generally speaking modern times always trumps ancient times in the same way that modern knowledge almost trumps ancient knowledge.
karla said: I think belief should follow truth encounters and where there hasn’t been one a forced belief is not a good substitute no matter the reason.
OK. I'll bite - what a 'truth encounter' and after you've had one why would you need to believe something? Surely after that you'd simply know it?
karla said: Truth is always popping up in all kinds of ways, stories, teachings, philosophies. I would expect it to be thus.
You mean the underlying truth of God?
karla said: I really was thinking you could list some succinctly that you see as cornerstone values of secularism. But I will check out this Declaration.
Oh, I think it's quite succinct. It's from 1948 though so might be a bit dated by now.
Cyber “Actually I think that's a *good* thing. I also think that the Enlightenment still hasn't gone far enough - even in Europe.”
Well since you claim modern knowledge trumps ancient knowledge shouldn’t postmodernism or any other future movement trump the Enlightenment making it outdated?
karla said: I don’t just pick one mind set, sometimes I can say something quiet postmodern, sometimes modern, sometimes pre-modern.
Cyber “It appears that you sometimes change your mode of thinking to support your pre-existing Christian beliefs or to avoiding confronting things which might possibly undermine those beliefs.”
I don’t think one mode of thinking is the only good mode. Truth is much more comprehensive than one method of apprehending it.
karla said: I think each age has an important element of truth to contribute and we don’t need to forsake the former for the latter, nor the latter for the former.
Cyber “No. Generally speaking modern times always trumps ancient times in the same way that modern knowledge almost trumps ancient knowledge.”
So the calendar is the gage for truth? The more modern the knowledge the more accurate? I don’t see this as true. I see the ancients, and even my grandparents age having a handle on some truths better than the modern age. And I see aspects of the modern age which seem to be a better proclamation of truth. I don’t think we can determine the value of knowledge by the calendar.
Cyber “OK. I'll bite - what a 'truth encounter' and after you've had one why would you need to believe something? Surely after that you'd simply know it?”
A truth encounter is just another way of saying experiencing truth. That someone shouldn’t be forced to believe something even if it is a good something if they haven’t entered into that belief by personal experience and choice. For instance I wouldn’t expect someone to take my word for it for whatever reason that God loves them and go “oh, okay, I now believe God loves me.” I would instead wish for them to seek that out on their own and if they come to encounter that love then they will be believing it. For anyone to force someone to believe something harms them far more than it could ever help.
“Believing” in my way of thinking isn’t as unsubstantiated as the term has come to be used. It’s not even linked just to mental apprehension, but to an internal positioning of latching on to that truth in your being. I would say in your heart (not speaking of the organ—but the inner real you).
Cyber “You mean the underlying truth of God?”
All truth is that which lines up with Him. So I don’t differentiate from God’s truth and another kind of truth.
Cyber “Oh, I think it's quite succinct. It's from 1948 though so might be a bit dated by now. “
I checked that out. It sounds much like the U.S. Declaration of Independence and the Constitution with the exception of some of the socialistic sounding things and the lack of reference to God. The principals of the U.S. Documents were taken primarily from John Locke’s Treaties of Government which are heavily laden with Scripture.
The way to achieve the effect you're seeking is for people to think less about being Christian and think more about Christ.
True. Good point. I automatically think of "Christian" as one who is joined with Christ rather than as a term utilized for followers of a particular belief system. "Christian" means "little Christ" a term given to the first followers of Christ because of their lives being marked as His followers.
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