Hope is a tangible reality rather than an intangible desire. Many see hope as something one musters up akin to positive thinking towards the desired goal. However, when Scripture speaks of hope, it speaks of something that is tangibly within the nature of Jesus. Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of having the hope of eternal life, this is not in the context of hoping we attain it, but in resting in its attained reality. We are to live in that reality versus wishing we might one day attain it.
Eternal life needs to be understood as existing within Someone rather than being a state of existence a far off. I John 5:11 tells us that “this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.” Notice carefully that 1 John 1:2 states clearly that “the life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” John says they proclaim that “the eternal life . . . has appeared to us.” This is not speaking of a day in the future when we go to heaven, but it is speaking of the person of Christ Jesus. Jesus is eternal life.
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15 comments:
I'm surprised (though I guess I shouldn't be) that quite a lot of what you post completely mystifies me. So much so that I'm often at a total loss at how to respond.
Anyway..... I always thought that religion in general - Christianity being a prime example - is largely based on the fear of death. Hence the idea of Eternal life - in one sort of another - being a central Christian idea.
No it's not really based on a fear of death. Though I can see how it may look like that with so much talk of heaven. But when I say "eternal life" I am not just talking about heaven. I am talking about our life now being made new. I'm not talking about far off things, but current realities.
This post wasn't written with this forum in mind, but for a Christian audience, but I thought I would share it here.
karla said: But when I say "eternal life" I am not just talking about heaven. I am talking about our life now being made new.
So where does the 'eternal' bit come in?
Jesus is eternal life. So as soon as our life merges with Him when we ask Him for that to happen we have eternal life, starting at that moment, rather than when we die. The Christian life is about learning to live from heaven now, not just experiencing it when we die. It does sound rather mystical, but it is also practical.
karla - That's *exactly* what I meant when I said your posts simply mystify me!
[laughs]
Wouldn't you expect there to be a mystical aspect to relationship with God if God is real?
But I don't believe in God or Mysticism.....
It's a bit like asking me to speculate about the telepathic abilities of Elves. The very question is without meaning.
Actually, fear of hell and death is a large motivating factor in Xianity no matter how much or how often they try to deny it. It's why Pascal's Wager comes up so often.
Secondly, we don't gain eternal life through merging with Jesus. We are made with eternal souls (according to Xianity) which is why some of us will be burning in hell for eternity. It would be much more equitable if our death would be the end, unless we chose to live eternally with Jesus, at which point our souls would be changed to live on, but that is not what Xian doctrine states. Karla tries to dress it up and make it pretty, but underneath it's a vile and contemptible religion that teaches that most people will suffer for eternity simply for being human.
GCT, "eternal life" is more than living forever. It's an abundance, a fullness, a vitality of life, more specifically it is God's life and we gain it by gaining Him.
I'll grant you that the Church has made Christianity largely about fire insurance and where we go after we die. But that mentality does not do justice to the fullness of what life with Christ is all about. And I think it has been put forth in this form as means of watering the Gospel down to make it palatable for evangelistic purposes, but truly I don't think we should only present such a small incomplete package of what Jesus is about. So I try to give you guys a fuller picture.
Karla,
"GCT, "eternal life" is more than living forever."
No, it is not as per the definition of the words being used. What you are talking about is quality of life not length of life.
"It's an abundance, a fullness, a vitality of life, more specifically it is God's life and we gain it by gaining Him.
I'll grant you that the Church has made Christianity largely about fire insurance and where we go after we die. But that mentality does not do justice to the fullness of what life with Christ is all about. And I think it has been put forth in this form as means of watering the Gospel down to make it palatable for evangelistic purposes, but truly I don't think we should only present such a small incomplete package of what Jesus is about. So I try to give you guys a fuller picture."
How does it enrich your life? How does belief in Jesus enrich your life? How does your belief that you are talking to some supernatural entity that may or may not be Jesus enrich your life?
GCT "No, it is not as per the definition of the words being used. What you are talking about is quality of life not length of life."
the word "eternal" refers to length but when I am talking about "eternal life" as a Christian term (life which is the life blood of Christ) it does also mean quality and substance of life and not just length. This is what Christians often mean by the term.
GCT "How does it enrich your life?"
I have been forgiven, filled with His Holy Spirit who aids me in life everyday, I can talk to Him about life and He reveals His truth to me both through Scripture and through speaking to me. He renews me, He is my steadfast comforter, He is my strength and peace and joy. He is the source of my love and compassion. Life is incredibly exciting and fulfilling with Him and to be so intertwined personally with Him is something I wish I even had the words to express the depths of that relationship.
GCT "How does belief in Jesus enrich your life? How does your belief that you are talking to some supernatural entity that may or may not be Jesus enrich your life?"
Intellectual belief isn't what it is about. That is of course true that I have that, but it's the experience with God and having Jesus be apart of me that gives me the fullness of life of which I speak.
Even sitting hear now typing I feel Him and know His reality. I know it in the depths of my being, and not just in my mental faculty. It's incredible and so very fulfilling. This is why we worship as Christians, we are so very enthralled by Him. It isn't a religious function, but a natural reality of expressing the joy that is within us.
Karla,
"the word "eternal" refers to length but when I am talking about "eternal life" as a Christian term (life which is the life blood of Christ) it does also mean quality and substance of life and not just length. This is what Christians often mean by the term."
How dare you chide me for intellectual dishonesty when you come back with this argument in bad faith. You don't get to re-define words and then claim that I'm arguing in bad faith when I can't read your mind and realize that the words you use don't mean what everyone else means when they say them. Further, "eternal life" as a Xian term? Get over yourself. You don't speak for all Xianity, as I've repeatedly pointed out to you.
"I have been forgiven, filled with His Holy Spirit who aids me in life everyday, I can talk to Him about life and He reveals His truth to me both through Scripture and through speaking to me."
How does he aid you. What "truth" have you learned from god? How can you tell that it is true? This is a load of shit.
"He renews me, He is my steadfast comforter, He is my strength and peace and joy. He is the source of my love and compassion."
Bullshit. You simply have convinced yourself that something is happening, but it's no different than people that go out and do activities they enjoy.
"Life is incredibly exciting and fulfilling with Him and to be so intertwined personally with Him is something I wish I even had the words to express the depths of that relationship."
Bullshit. What excitement do you actually gain from god? You get it from your self.
"Intellectual belief isn't what it is about."
So you keep asserting, but you can't show how one believes in god in a non-intellectual way. Epic fail.
"That is of course true that I have that, but it's the experience with God and having Jesus be apart of me that gives me the fullness of life of which I speak."
And yet (here comes another epic fail) you can't even tell me with any sort of intellectual honesty or good faith that it is god that is doing all this for you. You simply believe that it is, when it could be Satan leading you away from Allah. Of course, it's all psychosomatic, which you would know if you studied anything except how to be a dishonest apologist.
"Even sitting hear now typing I feel Him and know His reality."
You don't know shit, and you've made that amply clear. You've even admitted so much in the past, yet here you are claiming to know something that you've already had to concede. How am I supposed to take your words when I know you are not arguing in good faith?
"I know it in the depths of my being, and not just in my mental faculty."
This is bat-shit crazy. You can't know anything "in the depths of [your] being" because the "depths of [your] being" doesn't think. Of course, I doubt that you use your mellon very much either.
"This is why we worship as Christians, we are so very enthralled by Him."
More bullshit. Or maybe it's true, and if it is, then what does that say? You worship a known genocidal maniac simply because he makes you personally feel good? How monstrous. I keep trying to tell you that you are more moral than the monster you claim to worship, but maybe you aren't and you're a moral monster? Maybe you like the idea that god will punish all those who don't think like you?
"It isn't a religious function, but a natural reality of expressing the joy that is within us."
Bullshit, it is a religious function, as defined. Stop trying to make up new definitions for words.
And, yes, I've lost all patience and the small sliver of respect that I had for you. You don't deserve it with your bad faith argumentation and your accusations.
"I have been forgiven, filled with His Holy Spirit who aids me in life everyday, I can talk to Him about life and He reveals His truth to me both through Scripture and through speaking to me. He renews me, He is my steadfast comforter, He is my strength and peace and joy. He is the source of my love and compassion. Life is incredibly exciting and fulfilling with Him and to be so intertwined personally with Him is something I wish I even had the words to express the depths of that relationship."
Wonderfully spoken, Karla. I know exactly what you mean by this. There's nothing remotely close to it.
Quixote, thanks.
GCT, I am not playing games with you. I am not trying to trick you. I am not accusing you of anything. I was explaining that "eternal life" means more than just the face value of the words in Christian terminology. I don't have to speak for all Christians to say that, but I also don't know of those who don't believe that the life that comes from Jesus involves far more than what happens after we die. There may be differences as to what is now available prior to heaven to a Christian, but we all agree to my knowledge that life with Christ isn't just fire insurance. It isn't just believing the right things to insure our afterlife is lived out in the right place.
It is MORE than believing facts, it is experiencing a person -- Jesus Christ. Sometimes that experience is felt, tangible, evidenced, and sometimes it is simply known as one knows their parent loves them even when they aren't in the room doing an action of love that one can experience with their senses.
Truth is more than facts, it is a reality that can be known by experience -- it is a reality that can be encountered deeper in ourselves than our brains. Now, I know you and Cyber do not believe this is true, and that is fine. You don't have to. But that is a part of the fullness of what I am saying. I am not asking for agreement. But my position ought not to offend you or bother you so. It doesn't hurt you in any way.
I am going to forgive your words and outburst above. Please refrain from writing to me in that manner again.
If you truly believe, despite all evidence by neuroscience, that you somehow continue to live after death, you're beyond reach. If you truly believe that there is a soul that floats on up to the magical afterworld after death, well, then you're just retarded.
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