Many are familiar with the popular children’s song “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. . .” I have come to realize that I must take issue with this line in the song, because the way I know Jesus loves me is because I know His love and that is why I also believe the Bible. The Bible testifies about Him and tells us what He did for us, but the way we truly know He loves us is because we experience His loving us. We do not need to settle for reading that He loves us.
It is by His Spirit awakening our spirits that we know He is real. I hold the Bible in high regard as it is fully inspired by the Living God. But I think the Church has often elevated the Bible beyond its intended position. We treat it as if it were Jesus instead of the book that tells all about Him. It is a book that points beyond itself to the heavenly One who gives it meaning.
I don’t know that Jesus loves me because the Bible tells me so. I do not know it because I can give reasoned evidences of its veracity. I simply know the Lord loves me because I know the love of the Lord. My heart is alive to His presence and I hear His voice. This is why I love His Word, not vice versa.
The way to know His love is to know Him. The Bible is a great place to start learning about Him, but Jesus is the Way and there is no substitute for Him. The way to Jesus is Jesus. This is why we are to seek the Lord with all our heart. This is why those that seek truth shall find Him. It is the heart that seeks and the mind is renewed by what the heart encounters.
Seeking the proof sometimes sends us in the wrong direction because we are looking for intellectual reasons when what we need is a God encounter. Often no reason will suffice until one experiences Him for him or herself. I think that is why most reasons only satisfy believers, because unbelief is not a condition of the mind, but of the heart. Only when the heart has found God do the intellectual answers make much sense. It really all boils down to Jesus.
32 comments:
"This is why those that seek truth shall find Him." ~ Karla
So, let me see if I understand correctly---those who don't "find Him" never sought "truth" to begin with? There are presumably countless atheists in biblegod's chamber of horrors..i.e.."hell". So?..none of those people ever sought truth? Really? Really?
Boom "So, let me see if I understand correctly---those who don't "find Him" never sought "truth" to begin with? There are presumably countless atheists in biblegod's chamber of horrors..i.e.."hell". So?..none of those people ever sought truth? Really? Really"
Seeking truth is not just a matter of seeking facts. . . It's about seeking with your inner being (heart/soul), rather than the mind alone.
"Seeking truth is not just a matter of seeking facts. . . It's about seeking with your inner being (heart/soul) ~ Karla
::sigh::
Claiming that we know things with our "heart" and/or "soul" is meaningless godspeak. There is zero evidence that "knowledge" can be ascertained with one's cardiovasular organ(which pumps blood), and there is zero objective evidence that the latter "thingy" even exists. In any case, you've simply dodged the question, just as you frequently do. We can safely bet that you will somehow put the blame on those in "Hell". IOW, if X, Y, and Z are required to "find Him", then Karla is prepared to conclude that those who didn't "find Him", including the occupants of "Hell", mustn't have done X, Y, and Z properly(or at all).
"[...]rather than the mind alone." ~ Karla
That's odd, because it is by the use of our minds, alone, that we know that Poseidon, Zeus, gremlins, and toothfairies don't have a referent in reality. If a "God" actually exists, then surely he/she must know that its existence has to make sense to us, otherwise, we could find ourselves believing in the above-mentioned characters in our "hearts". Right? Right.
Thus, it wouldn't be a smart move on anyone's part to take your advice when it comes to knowing what's real and what isn't.
Boom "Claiming that we know things with our "heart" and/or "soul" is meaningless godspeak. There is zero evidence that "knowledge" can be ascertained with one's cardiovasular organ(which pumps blood), and there is zero objective evidence that the latter "thingy" even exists."
First, you know I am not speaking of the organ. Second, I am not speaking of mental knowledge, facts, intellect.
Boom "In any case, you've simply dodged the question, just as you frequently do. We can safely bet that you will somehow put the blame on those in "Hell". IOW, if X, Y, and Z are required to "find Him", then Karla is prepared to conclude that those who didn't "find Him", including the occupants of "Hell", mustn't have done X, Y, and Z properly(or at all)."
I am not blaming or condemning anyone. Jesus said that He came not to condemn the world, but to save it. People already lived in condemnation, He was coming to set them free from that -- not to bring them more of it. God wants to bring people out of state of guilt, but the only way is Jesus. That doesn't mean knowing correct facts about Him, but knowing Him. This is why it is necessary to seek with your heart, not just your head. Your "you" your being, your person, your inner self, your soul, heart, spirit, whatever you want to call it.
Boom "That's odd, because it is by the use of our minds, alone, that we know that Poseidon, Zeus, gremlins, and toothfairies don't have a referent in reality."
And yet we cannot prove that God does not exist. Our minds can't do that. I'm not really sure that one can say we can know for sure those other creatures don't exist because we haven't scoured the entire earth and we do not know all things. I think we know they are man made because they are small, natural despite their supernatural attributes.
Boom "If a "God" actually exists, then surely he/she must know that its existence has to make sense to us, otherwise, we could find ourselves believing in the above-mentioned characters in our "hearts". Right? Right."
Believing in Zeus, et al, has no power. It may seem the same to you because God seems as impossible and unreal as Zeus, but for some reason the whole world over discusses God, but not Zeus. Even the early mythologies spoke of a singular God that was above all the other gods.
Also I'm not saying that God can't make sense to us. He makes sense to me and millions of other people. I'm not saying we have to abandon our mind, or our mental apprehension, but I am saying that that is only one aspect of understanding truth and that there is more to it.
Remember how you are often telling me my "apologetics" only work for the already converted?
I have been trying to look at what I am saying from your perspective, not easy to do since I've never been an atheist. But at the same time I can see that what I take for granted to be true is not as obvious to others and I take it to me for me.
Honestly, I provide information and give arguments and have conversations . . . and there was a time I thought I could hit on a golden argument and make a difference in someone understanding the reality of God and now I have experienced so much more of God that I don't think that way anymore. I think if I could "win" the grand argument and convince someone intellectually God exist and they decide intellectually to now believe that -- all I've done is helped create a Deist of sorts -- because knowing Jesus is so much more real -- I can't reduce it to intellectually choosing the "religion" that makes sense. I would not be doing anyone any favors. I would only be bringing someone into religion not Jesus. That happens a lot -- people get the Christian religion without meeting Jesus. I think in a way I had a lot of that way back when, and now I hear Him, and feel Him, and see His hand at work, and know His Spirit and His guidance in a way that would have been utterly foreign to me a few years back. I thought I knew Him then, and I did to an extent, but I had no idea how much more there was I could experience in Him.
Anyway, I'm just being honest with you. I don't expect to hit on some golden argument that will make you have some great epiphany and come to Jesus. I correspond with you because you seem to want to talk. And I do pray for you. Well, I'm going to call it a night.
"First, you know I am not speaking of the organ." ~ Karla
Yes, I am perfectly aware that you aren't speaking of the actual organ, hence my point: Karla cannot put into any meaningful, objective terms what it means to "know" something with her "heart"(or "soul"). The best she's got, is "gut instinct", and/or, "intuition", both of which are proven to occur in the brain, neither of which are 100% reliable for determining "truth".
"I am not blaming or condemning anyone." ~ Karla
In an explicit sense, perhaps not. In an implicit sense? Yes. At the end of the day, those occupants of "Hell" who never found "Him" will be to blame, and I know this because you will never blame the biblegod you worship, for "He" is perfect in your mind. Again, you admonish nonbelievers to not use intellect, exclusively, when it comes to "finding Him". Yet, we use our intellect, exclusively, when determining if Allah, Zeus, Poseidon, and all sorts of other wacky, mythological characters actually exist, or not.
"Jesus said that He came not to condemn the world, but to save it." ~ Karla
Good. **Then "Jesus" can stop hiding and reveal himself in ways that don't require "faith", or "gut instinct", or "intuition", to know that he's actually there. We've been over it a sickening amount of times: "God" doesn't need to "hide"; we still retain the freewill with which to REJECT "God", even if we are thoroughly, 100% convinced that this supposed "God" exists.
"People already lived in condemnation[...]"
Yes, and to be more precise, we're BORN condemned. All the more absurd.
"God wants to bring people out of state of guilt, but the only way is Jesus."
See here**, above.
"That doesn't mean knowing correct facts about Him, but knowing Him."
Yes, yes,.."knowing Him", which requires being secure that there is someone there to "know".
"This is why it is necessary to seek with your heart, not just your head."
Bullocks. This is just another way to say, "Just believe it, boomslang, and then it'll be true!"
"And yet we cannot prove that God does not exist. Our minds can't do that."
Oh, good grief. Well, Karla, our "minds cant" disprove Thetans, toothfairies, Allah, the boogieman, or Santa Claus, either. So? Should we seek to find those characters with our "hearts", too?...you know, just as you recommend that we should seek "Yahweh" with our "heart"??
"I'm not really sure that one can say we can know for sure those other creatures don't exist because we haven't scoured the entire earth and we do not know all things. I think we know they are man made because they are small, natural despite their supernatural attributes." ~ Karla
Please make up your mind. If we can't "know for SURE[caps added]" if those characters don't exist, then it doesn't really make much sense to then say, "I think we know they are man made[yadda, yadda]". You have contradicted yourself(again).
"Believing in Zeus, et al, has no power. It may seem the same to you because (Yahweh) seems as impossible and unreal as Zeus, but for some reason the whole world over discusses (Yahweh), but not Zeus."
There is no more evidence for "Yahweh" than there is for "Zeus". That millions of today's people "discuss" the former is not evidence that what they discuss has a referent in reality. Millions discuss "Allah", too. Does that mean "Allah" exists? No. Truth isn't determined by popular vote.
"I'm not saying we have to abandon our mind, or our mental apprehension, but I am saying that that is only one aspect of understanding truth and that there is more to it."
Yes, I get you loud and clear. So, perhaps when I hear Tom Cruise discuss "Scientology" and it doesn't make sense to me, perhaps there is "more to it". Perhaps when a Mormon tells me about Moroni and the magical Golden Tablets, there is "more to it". Can you seriously not see the inconsistency in the method(s) that you propose will find "truth"?
"I have been trying to look at what I am saying from your perspective, not easy to do since I've never been an atheist."
You were born "an atheist"..i.e..lacking a belief in "God"/gods. 'Not necessarily pertinent, but a fact, nonetheless.
"Anyway, I'm just being honest with you."
Except that I don't think you're being entirely honest with yourself.
"I don't expect to hit on some golden argument that will make you have some great epiphany and come to Jesus. I correspond with you because you seem to want to talk. And I do pray for you."
This is the part I never understand..i.e..why Christians "pray" for me. Instead of asking this supposed "God" to change my perspective in some way, why not just ask him to give me the flippin' evidence that would convince me he actually exists? When you say you're going to "pray" for me, it's as if you are saying I'm deficient in some way and need to be corrected. This is precisely what I meant about blaming the non-believer. You might very well mean well, but from a non-believer's perspective, it's basically an insult.
Boom “This is the part I never understand..i.e..why Christians "pray" for me. Instead of asking this supposed "God" to change my perspective in some way, why not just ask him to give me the flippin' evidence that would convince me he actually exists? When you say you're going to "pray" for me, it's as if you are saying I'm deficient in some way and need to be corrected. This is precisely what I meant about blaming the non-believer. You might very well mean well, but from a non-believer's perspective, it's basically an insult.”
I almost explained the “I pray for you” part because I thought it just might be taken the way you are now taking it. . . I do pray that God would show Himself to you that He would meet you right where you need Him to in a multiplicity of ways. I pray for your well-being and even for success in your music.
Contrary to what you may think I don’t expect you or want you to just believe. I want you to see Him and then I hope that will bring belief.
As to the Zeus and all that --- it is impossible to prove a negative that something does not exist unless the thing itself is disproven some other way. This goes for Bigfoot, Santa, Zeus, and God. I don’t see them as on equal footing, but that’s because I have experienced one and see the truth for one and not the others.
"I do pray that God would show Himself to you that He would meet you right where you need Him to in a multiplicity of ways."
Fair enough. But the question remains: If I die anytime *before* "He" takes the initiative to do precisely what you just described, who is ultimately responsible for my ending up in "Hell"?
"As to the Zeus and all that --- it is impossible to prove a negative that something does not exist unless the thing itself is disproven some other way. This goes for Bigfoot, Santa, Zeus, and God. I don’t see them as on equal footing, but that’s because I have experienced one and see the truth for one and not the others."
Why not take your own advice, and simply believe in the others with your "heart"? If that won't work, why do you suppose it won't work?
Boom “Fair enough. But the question remains: If I die anytime *before* "He" takes the initiative to do precisely what you just described, who is ultimately responsible for my ending up in "Hell"?”
You are. And before you jump on that – He gives everyone what they need to find Him. I do not for a minute believe He will rob you of that opportunity. Ultimately, though the choice is yours. I don’t see how it could be any other way.
Boom “Why not take your own advice, and simply believe in the others with your "heart"? If that won't work, why do you suppose it won't work?”
There is no substance in which to connect with. Heart belief requires someone to enter through that belief. Anything less is a substitution accepted by the mind not the heart. Jesus is there. That is why I can believe in my heart and enter into Him. Zeus is not.
Previously, me: "But the question remains: If I die anytime *before* 'He' takes the initiative to do precisely what you just described, who is ultimately responsible for my ending up in 'Hell'?"
You respond: "You are."
Right---just as I suspected. The "God" you worship(who just happens to be "invisible") can do no wrong, thus, when it comes to "Hell", you are forced to blame the occupants of "Hell". No real astonishing disclosure there.
"And before you jump on that – He gives everyone what they need to find Him."
If you don't mind terribly, I'm still going to "jump on that", simply because your apologetic is as unconvincing as the very "God" you are defending.
So, "He gives everyone what they need to FIND HIM"(caps and bold added), does he? Here's a novel concept: How about NOT making us "find" anything at all? Well? Yes, why not just APPEAR, just like "He" presumably did just a few thousand years ago? Why in the %$#@ should I have to accept a "God" on crappy evidence, for instance, like some guy going around tugging on people's legs, claiming to lengthen them? My eternal "soul" is at stake, here, and I'm essentially being told that I need to be willing to play "hide 'n' seek" and believe amateur parlor tricks. Totally, 100% absurd.
"I do not for a minute believe He will rob you of that opportunity."
Huh? "opportunity"? The (presumed) most powerful being in the universe, who also "timeless", is going to give little ol' mortal me the "opportunity" to go FIND him, is he? Absurd. And again, that absurdity is compounded, considering that YOU are the one who insists that "God" lying in wait, and even that he "hides" for my "benefit".
Ultimately, though the choice is yours."
As I've said probably one hundred times on this blog----nonbelief isn't a "choice". Do you "choose" not to believe in Zeus? Or is your nonbelief simply the result of an utter lack of evidence for Zeus??
"I don’t see how it could be any other way."
Of course you don't---that's your religious conviction at work.
Previously, me: "Why not take your own advice, and simply believe in the others with your 'heart'? If that won't work, why do you suppose it won't work?"
You respond: "There is no substance in which to connect with."
You don't know that, and you even concede that such beings cannot be disproven. You are not being consistent.
"Heart belief requires someone to enter through that belief."
NO! "Heart belief" requires that you BELIEVE in said someone first, despite there not being good evidence to do so. No, thank you.
"Jesus is there."
No. Your belief that "Jesus is there", is there. And you've proffered zero evidence that it is anything more than that.
All you have is the same tired, unconvincing excuses when it comes to this subject.
BTW, despite that we will evidently never find common ground here, I appreciate the well-wishes on my musical pursuits, nonetheless. I have the hankerin' to ask if you think that my success, if I should obtain it, would be because you prayed for me, or the result of my hard work. But I know better than to ask such a question = /
Boom "BTW, despite that we will evidently never find common ground here"
I'm not ruling out that possibility.
Boom "I appreciate the well-wishes on my musical pursuits, nonetheless."
I'm glad.
Boom "I have the hankerin' to ask if you think that my success, if I should obtain it, would be because you prayed for me, or the result of my hard work."
Well, I will answer best I can the unasked question. First I'd say that since God created us -- He also designed us -- each with different talents and abilities. So in a way I think all of what you are capable of was first something given to you by God everything from your very life to your talent.
However, at the same time I believe we have great freedom to use the talent and put our own strength and ability to work by nurturing it, using it, expressing that creativity, practicing, taking lessons, or self-teaching etc. And God does want us to shine in that regard and have the accolades of an art well expressed or a job well done.
As for what my or anyone's prayers do for you, I don't know exactly. I know what is possible. They could open doors for you that were previously closed. They could give you favor with other musicians or others in the music industry. They could help you in honing your talent. They could help you connect with the Lord through your music as well. There are lots of possibilities.
Personally I think in all things we should give thanks to God and also be excited for the you that shines through as the producer of the music as well. I think it's funny when I hear people say "it's all God" when someone compliments them on their talent. God gave us that talent to shine and He doesn't mind us shining.
But I know better than to ask such a question = /
Boom, I will respond to the other comments tomorrow.
Boom “Right---just as I suspected. The "God" you worship(who just happens to be "invisible") can do no wrong, thus, when it comes to "Hell", you are forced to blame the occupants of "Hell". No real astonishing disclosure there.”
I’m not forced to do anything. People are personally responsible for their sin. One could argue that Satan is ultimately to blame for Hell, but we still have culpability. If we didn’t have any legitimate guilt and responsibility there would be no need for God to forgive us of anything.
Even if we don’t agree on the existence or nature of God, I would imagine we agree that humans do lots of bad things. I’m not sure anyone can argue that we all do 100% good 100% of the time, no matter what one’s definition is of good.
Boom “If you don't mind terribly, I'm still going to "jump on that", simply because your apologetic is as unconvincing as the very "God" you are defending. “
I knew you would jump on it anyway.
Boom “So, "He gives everyone what they need to FIND HIM"(caps and bold added), does he? Here's a novel concept: How about NOT making us "find" anything at all? Well?”
We have been over this. You actually already give my answer below.
Boom “Yes, why not just APPEAR, just like "He" presumably did just a few thousand years ago? Why in the %$#@ should I have to accept a "God" on crappy evidence, for instance, like some guy going around tugging on people's legs, claiming to lengthen them?”
Boom I really get the impression from you that you are really ticked off at God for not being real to you. I get the idea that it’s not that you don’t believe in God, because I think that belief is deeply rooted in you, but that you feel jilted by Him for His absence in your life and the doctrine that people presumably develop to make that absent God justified in His absence so long as you just have faith anyway and believe. Except that I’m not the sort to tell you to just get over it and believe Him anyway so that your soul is safe.
I am the sort that says God can be that real to you and you are not defective or rejected by Him. Even right now in the middle of either non-belief, disbelief, or rebellion, whatever it can be accurately called, He still loves you.
Boom “My eternal "soul" is at stake, here, and I'm essentially being told that I need to be willing to play "hide 'n' seek" and believe amateur parlor tricks. Totally, 100% absurd.”
When I speak of seeking, I am not trying to put the obligation of working to find Him upon you. I just lack the language to adequately express what I want to say in a meaningful way. There is truth to actively seeking Him as I have written about, but at the same time He is seeking you and by you I mean your heart. He is even now at work to bring you to Himself in a way that allows for your freedom to still be intact and your being to fully know His being. When you become aware of His hand in your life during this period of what feels like a stark absence of Him, you will be amazed at what you cannot see now, but will one day understand. I don’t think that day is that far off.
Boom “As I've said probably one hundred times on this blog----nonbelief isn't a "choice". Do you "choose" not to believe in Zeus? Or is your nonbelief simply the result of an utter lack of evidence for Zeus??”
I know that is your position. It is not one I share as you know.
Karla: "There is no substance in which to connect with."
Boom “You don't know that, and you even concede that such beings cannot be disproven. You are not being consistent.”
I am being consistent. Remember I use the word know in two connotations. One is mental/intellectual and the other is spiritual/experiential. By logic one cannot intellectually disprove the existence of a unicorn, Santa, Zeus, or God. One can only say they have not encountered positive evidence for their existence, but unless the person is omniscient and omnipresent they cannot prove a negative absolutely. However, I can have spiritual knowledge that I find satisfactory combined with intellectual history that allows me to assert I do not find any substance to Zeus, Santa, or a unicorn, but I find ultimate substance in the being of God.
Boom “NO! "Heart belief" requires that you BELIEVE in said someone first, despite there not being good evidence to do so. No, thank you.”
No, it requires that you experience first and then believe what you experience. Like God calling out to Abraham the first time: He heard the Lord call and then he responded. Or Samuel hearing God calling his name and he thought it was Eli and then he ruled out that source of what he was hearing and listened to the voice of the Lord. All through the Bible you have people that saw or heard or experienced in some way the Lord and then they believed the Lord and it was accredited to them as righteousness (Hebrews 11). God made the first move each time. For Paul it was Jesus showing up on the road to Damascus in a blinding light. Only then did He believe.
Boom “No. Your belief that "Jesus is there", is there. And you've proffered zero evidence that it is anything more than that. All you have is the same tired, unconvincing excuses when it comes to this subject.”
I’m sorry my words fail to communicate that He truly is.
Me: "BTW, despite that we will evidently never find common ground here"
You: "I'm not ruling out that possibility."
As far as methods for determining which things have referent in reality, and which things do not, I am, YES, completely ruling out the possibility that we'll find common ground. You see, your methods..e.g..believing things with your "heart", revelation, and "faith", can, and DO, convince countless MILLIONS of people of other faiths that what they believe is "Truth", when you know d@mned-well that these countless millions are wrong and self-DECEIVED. That, Karla, is all the evidence that I need to know that said methods - your methods - are flimsy, and ultimately, NOT reliable, and also, that there is an extremely high likelihood that you are the same.
"First I'd say that since God created us -- He also designed us -- each with different talents and abilities."
*Unproven assertion; 'not the least bit convincing.
"So in a way I think all of what you are capable of was first something given to you by God everything from your very life to your talent."
See here*, above, and I will offer my reasoning for why it's not convincing, below.
"However, at the same time I believe we have great freedom to use the talent and put our own strength and ability to work by nurturing it, using it, expressing that creativity, practicing, taking lessons, or self-teaching etc. And God does want us to shine in that regard and have the accolades of an art well expressed or a job well done.
So, "God" is going to give me an innate "talent", but I have to "practice" that talent. The first glaring problem is that there is no way to test for whether my abilities were "God-given", or simply the result of an natural inclination and massive amounts of WORK on my part.
So, again, your hypothesis is unfalsifiable. I could just as easily say it was my luck rabbit's foot that got me where I am, and no one can disprove it. So, again, what you propose is unconvincing. We've achieved no common ground, whatsoever.
"As for what my or anyone's prayers do for you, I don't know exactly. I know what is possible. They could open doors for you that were previously closed."
If you think for one nano-second that I'm going to believe that a "God" who refuses to show himself to me in any meaningful, objective way, who will later punish me by seeing to it that I am tormented with fire 24/7 for all of eternity for not accepting his existence on "faith", is the same "God" who will help me achieve my goals in life because Karla has asked him to, then I'm sorry, but you are so sadly mistaken. That idea is 100%, certified wacko. What you propose is nonsense..i.e..ideas that don't make sense.
"I think it's funny when I hear people say 'it's all God' when someone compliments them on their talent."
I think it's terribly sad, 'not funny at all.
"God gave us that talent to shine and He doesn't mind us shining."
Evidence? 'Got any? If not, why do you incessantly assert things for which you have no demonstrable evidence? You admittedly want to find common ground, right? If so, how can you not see that a lot of what you write is a waste of time(your time, too), with possibly the exception of keeping those who are already-convinced, convinced?
"I’m not forced to do anything."
When I say "forced", I don't mean against your will; I simply mean that there are limited options, two of which you will never, ever, ever, EVER choose. Those are, 1) that "God" is wrong or negligent, and 2) that "God" doesn't exist. When it comes to "hell", your only option is to blame the occupants of said torture chamber, which is precisely what you do. You do this, *despite* that you've gone on record to say that "God" might currently be waiting to reveal himself, in which case, a nonbeliever could drop dead by the time you get to the end of this sentence, and you will STILL blame that person for not "finding" this supposed hiding, invisible "God" of yours. Again, what you propose is inconsistent and nonsensical.
"People are personally responsible for their sin."
We've been over it countless times, Karla. People are BORN condemned, according to your worldview, this, because one other person and a possible accomplice actively chose to go against biblegod.
So, what you propose is that the entire human race is "personally responsible" for the trespass of one or two others. THAT, Karla, spits directly into the face of "justice". Absurd...totally, 100% absurd.
"If we didn’t have any legitimate guilt and responsibility there would be no need for God to forgive us of anything
The irony...it STINGS!
"Even if we don’t agree on the existence or nature of God, I would imagine we agree that humans do lots of bad things."
Your "bad", and my "bad", are based on two totally different concepts. I say it is "bad" to harm our fellow human beings unnecessarily---for instance, to throw rocks at defiant teens or gay people---whereas, YOU think those things aren't "bad", as long as it your biblegod commanding it be done. 'Very, very scary.
"I’m not sure anyone can argue that we all do 100% good 100% of the time, no matter what one’s definition is of good."
Red herring. Just because we don't do "good" 100% of the time, doesn't mean that we are inherently "evil". Human beings are imperfect by nature. Is a cat that swats a lizard around when it has zero intention of eating it being "evil"? Is it offending "God"? NO---the lizard is curious by nature.
"Boom I really get the impression from you that you are really ticked off at God for not being real to you."
The ridiculousness of your words evidently hadn't occurred to you. I don't believe in your biblegod, or any other gods. I cannot make it any clearer. If I'm "ticked off" at anything, it is that I've demonstrated using sound reasoning that certain tenets of what you believe are utterly false and not even worthy of belief, yet, you keep defending these ideas.
"I get the idea that it’s not that you don’t believe in God, because I think that belief is deeply rooted in you"
And guess what... you couldn't be more wrong. True, it took a long time to get over my Christian upbringing(brainwashing), including my being used to "God" looking out for little ol' me. But once I saw how utterly selfish that belief was - and that I could no longer feel "blessed" that "God" was helping me, while MILLIONS of children STARVE to death - I was finally, and thankfully, able to shake that ridiculously selfish belief.
"I am the sort that says God can be that real to you and you are not defective or rejected by Him. Even right now in the middle of either non-belief, disbelief, or rebellion, whatever it can be accurately called, He still loves you."
I don't see one scrap of evidence that there is any "He" there, so you had it right the first time..i.e.."non-belief". Thus, telling me, "He still loves you" is as meaningless as meaningless can get. Do. not. care. If the "He" exists, the ultimate form of "love" would be to give me the evidence that would convince that "He' actually exists. So, I can only conclude that, a) No, "He" doesn't "love" me, or b) "He" doesn't exist.
b
You: "There is truth to actively seeking Him as I have written about, but at the same time He is seeking you and by you I mean your heart"
Useless, "Christianese" godspeak to someone who's not convinced. An "omnipotent", "omnipresent" being is "seeking" mE? Good grief...please.
"[..........] I don’t think that day is that far off."
Yes, yes...you're a "Prophet" now. Despite that you as much as admit that "God" is lying in wait, withholding evidence for some day in the future, meanwhile, I could drop dead at the end of the sentence and end up in "hell", and Karla would ultimately blame ME. Ludicrous!
Me: “As I've said probably one hundred times on this blog----nonbelief isn't a 'choice'. Do you 'choose' not to believe in Zeus? Or is your nonbelief simply the result of an utter lack of evidence for Zeus??”
"I know that is your position. It is not one I share as you know."
No, I do NOT know any such thing. Are you saying that your non-belief in Zeus is a "choice"? You could believe in "Zeus" if you wanted to, but you choose not to? I think you're being dishonest. Please feel free to prove me wrong(preferable using logic).
"However, I can have spiritual knowledge that I find satisfactory combined with intellectual history that allows me to assert I do not find any substance to Zeus, Santa, or a unicorn, but I find ultimate substance in the being of [Yahweh]."
I dismiss the former three with intellect, and intellect, only, NO "spiritual" woo-woo needed.
"No, it requires that you experience first and then believe what you experience."
Fine---once I "experience" this alleged "God" in the same way that the ancients allegedly experienced him..i.e..in THE FLESH, then I'll believe. Until then, I won't accept its existence on hearsay, revelation, or "faith".
"All through the Bible you have people that saw or heard or experienced in some way the Lord and then they believed the Lord and it was accredited to them as righteousness (Hebrews 11). God made the first move each time."
Yes, "saw" or "heard", as in, right before their eyes, or an objective, audible voice, neither of which requires Apologetic blogs, "faith", revelation, or second-hand info'.
"I’m sorry my words fail to communicate that He truly is."
No need to be sorry--just accept that you still don't have a grasp of what it means to be an atheist(and probably never will), an that apologetics are only meant to keep the already-convinced convinced.
You seem to be really focused on the matter of hell. What if I and all the other Christians who believe that there is a hell are all wrong?
Would you really want our errors to keep you riled up so much that you don't want anything to do with God even if He did show up to you?
I'm not sure I've got any more words for you -- or anything new to say at this point. I do think in your own way you are seeking even if what you are seeking is undefined by you or even unknown to you. And I also believe that I am not going to convince you by my words that Jesus is real and that He really loves you. I think the way He will become real to you isn't through this medium.
Whether you believe it or not I believe He has given you a special creativity musically and otherwise and that your creativity is going to increase both because the work you put into it will begin to be seen in greater measure in what you produce and because of the doors He is going to open for you that will be obvious favor you didn't expect from places you wouldn't expect it to come from. And when that happens you will remember and I hope consider that the Lord is at work both in giving me insight into what He is going to do for your in advance, and in doing things in your life.
He hasn't forgotten you. He hasn't left you out. This year is going to be different.
Also, if you can help it, don't respond to this post. Just file it away as useless information if you must, but one day I believe you will remember this post and it will have far more meaning than it does now.
Until then, just let it be.
Just want to say Happy Holidays. I still find what you are proposing to be every bit as unbelievable; every bit as unconvincing as it's always been, and as for the bits of "prophetic" insight you offer, I don't know whether to laugh, or cry. But there again, I know that you're a victim of religious indoctrination, just like I was, and just like countless millions of other former-believers were.
For the record, I haven't responded, not because of your advice not to respond, but because I understand that the thought of this life being all that there is is just too damned scary for some people. Many will shelf or buffer this fear to their grave - whether it be with "spirituality", or some other woo - and I highly suspect that you are one of those people. Well, truth be told, it was scary and disturbing for me, too, and in some ways, still is. Notwithstanding, people being fearful of the thought of complete nothingness at death doesn't mean that this won't be precisely the case. Oh, well.
Hi Boom. Thank you for the holiday wishes. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving that that you have a Merry Christmas.
As for the prophetic perspective I offered, it is your choice what you do with it. I imagine the Lord will bring it to remembrance one day when the time is right.
I have already tasted of the Kingdom of Heaven so it is not a matter of fear that I believe, but a matter of substance having experienced already the reality of heaven.
Thanks. As an ex-christian, I still celebrate some of the cultural aspects of the holidays..e.g..eating turkey and pumpkin pie, giving presents to loved ones, putting up lights, and enjoying time off from work, etc.
Anyhoo...
"As for the prophetic perspective I offered, it is your choice what you do with it." ~ Karla
True, and I have chosen to chalk it up to unproven, spiritual "woo", despite that I know you mean well.
"I imagine the Lord will bring it to remembrance one day when the time is right." ~ Karla
You'd be very hard-pressed to convince me that "the time" isn't always "right" for saving people from biblegod's chamber of horrors, AKA, "hell". To analogize, if a fireman had knowledge that a school cafeteria had a small fire in the kitchen, but said, "I'm just waiting for the right time to get involved", as he stood by and watched children walk single file into the said cafeteria, we'd have that man fired on the spot, and possibly even locked up in a loony bin.
"I have already tasted of the Kingdom of Heaven so it is not a matter of fear that I believe, but a matter of substance having experienced already the reality of heaven." ~ Karla
If what you are asserting as fact were supported with "substance", I would think that you could demonstrate what you are proposing. But alas, after hundreds and hundreds of posts, you cannot. We cannot know that this supposed "Kingdom of Heaven" is fact, until *after* we die. How convenient.
'Best
Boom "You'd be very hard-pressed to convince me that "the time" isn't always "right" for saving people"
I wasn't referring to salvation when I said "right time." It could include that, but it was not limited to that.
Boom "We cannot know that this supposed "Kingdom of Heaven" is fact, until *after* we die. How convenient."
No, we can know it now -- we can experience heaven now, not just after we die.
"I wasn't referring to salvation when I said 'right time'. It could include that, but it was not limited to that." ~ Karla
Let's review: You were talking about your "prophetic perspective" and how (you think) it applies to me, who is currently unconvinced. Moreover, you have gone on record to say that your biblegod is lying in wait for the right time to appear to me; that in the mean time, he hides for my benefit, although you insist that him appearing to me is something that WILL happen.[paraphrased]
I'm simply saying that this notion is unbelievable, silly, and down right immoral, since I could drop dead ten minutes from now a nonbeliever, which means I'd get "hell". In other words, your biblegod is willing to gamble with people's eternal fates. Right now, this flippin' minute, is the "right time". The only acceptable excuse would be that said "God" knows the future, in which case, my "free will" is then an illusion(as is everyone else's).
"No, we can know it now -- we can experience heaven now, not just after we die."
Yes, yes....in the metaphoric sense, I can experience "heaven". In fact, just last week I had a full body massage. Aaaah
= P
Addendum:
When you prophesy....
He has given you a special creativity musically and otherwise and that your creativity is going to increase both because the work you put into it will begin to be seen in greater measure in what you produce and because of the doors He is going to open for you that will be obvious favor you didn't expect from places you wouldn't expect it to come from[bold added]
No, it won't "be obvious", unless, between now and then, "He" gives me the evidence that "He" knows would convince me that "He" actually exists.
Becoming successful at something - especially something that you work very hard at - isn't "obvious" that there has been divine intervention.
Boom "Yes, yes....in the metaphoric sense, I can experience "heaven". In fact, just last week I had a full body massage. Aaaah"
I wasn't speaking metaphorically.
Yes, I'm aware that you weren't speaking metaphorically. I simply figured that instead of saying, "Can you provide demonstrable evidence for [X, Y, and Z]?", that I'd do something different.
Boom "Yes, I'm aware that you weren't speaking metaphorically. I simply figured that instead of saying, "Can you provide demonstrable evidence for [X, Y, and Z]?", that I'd do something different."
Ok. I think the evidence you seek you won't find by reading about the event. It is something that will only help if you are the experiencer of the event and that is how it should be. My testimony can be believed, but your testimony can be experienced by you and that will be far more powerful and real to you just as your current testimony of not having experienced God is far more real to you than anything I can tell you have having experienced God.
Correction:
In an analogy that I made several posts up, at the end where I wrote, "No---the lizard is curious by nature", it should have been, "No---the cat is curious by nature."
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